Muslims Overrun US Embassy In Cairo, Replace US Flag With Al Qaeda Flag. Also Overrun US Consulate In Libya. Obama Apologizes As American Is Murdered

God damn America is starting to fall apart.  And all this on the anniversary of 9/11 in the world that Obama “fundamentally transformed” after that evil Bush:

Egyptian Protesters Climb Walls Of U.S. Embassy, American Flags Taken Down And Replaced With Black Al-Qaeda Flags – Update: Obama Admin Condemns Individuals Who “Hurt The Religious Feelings Of Muslims”…

Keep in mind these are the same protesters Obama backed during the Arab Spring uprising against Mubarak.

Via CNN:

Angry protesters climbed the walls of the U.S. Embassy in Cairo on Tuesday and hauled down its American flags, replacing them with black flags with Islamic emblems.

The incident prompted U.S. security guards to fire off a volley of warning shots as a large crowd gathered outside, apparently upset about the production of a Dutch film thought to insult the Prophet Mohammed, said CNN producer Mohammed Fahmy, who was on the scene.

An embassy operator told CNN that the facility had been cleared of diplomatic personnel earlier Tuesday, ahead of the apparent threat, while Egyptian riot police were called to help secure the embassy walls.

Update: More pictures.

Update: Insanity rules the day. From the State Department’s Egyptian embassy website:

Here’s one more of Old Glory going down in humiliation with the al Qaeda flag being raised:

But don’t worry, anybody.  Obama raced out to immediately apologize for our embassy being an offensive symbol of a hated Great Satan State:

Let’s look at that statement again:

The Embassy of the United States in Cairo condemns the continuing efforts by misguided individuals to hurt the religious feelings of Muslims – as we condemn efforts to offend believers of all religions. Today, the 11th anniversary of the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks on the United States, Americans are honoring our patriots and those who serve our nation as the fitting response to the enemies of democracy. Respect for religious beliefs is a cornerstone of American democracy. We firmly reject the actions by those who abuse the universal right of free speech to hurt the religious beliefs of others

BEFORE Obama’s sincere apology to the Muslims that just stormed our embassy and burned our flag, here is what had occurred:

The statement comes after a mob of Egyptians climbed the walls of the embassy and tore down the American flag. Reuters reports:

Egyptian protesters scaled the walls of the U.S. embassy in Cairo on Tuesday and pulled down the American flag during a protest over what they said was a film being produced in the United States that insulted Prophet Mohammad, witnesses said.

In place of the U.S. flag, the protesters tried to raise a black flag with the words “There is no God but Allah and Mohammad is his messenger”, a Reuters reporter said.

Once the U.S. flag was hauled down, protesters tore it up, with some showing off small pieces to television cameras. Then others burned remains.

This movie must be banned immediately and an apology should be made … This is a disgrace,” said 19-year-old, Ismail Mahmoud, a member of the so-called “ultras” soccer supporters who played a big role in the uprising that brought down Hosni Mubarak last year

Don’t worry.  Nobody apologizes for America’s sins better than Obama.  Primarily because he agrees with the people who say we are so damn evil.  It’s important that terrorists have more rights to attack our embassies than that American citizens in the US should have free speech.

You don’t think Obama is going to apologize to me if I’m offended by what the Egyptians did and storm their embassy and piss on their flag before burning it, do you?  Oh, it only works in one direction, and Obama’s apologies are only for those who hate America.

I’m trying to remember if anything like this ever happened before: our embassy being attacked and overran, our economy in the toilet, and a pathetic failed Democrat president doing nothing.  Does that bring back any memories?  Hmmm:

At least Jimmy’s a happy man right now:

There are reports that an American has been killed at the US Consulate in Libya.

I sure hope Obama has a good apology for the Libyans.  How dare Americans think they should have the right to breathe on what international law defines as U.S. soil?  I mean, dang, we should thank them for not murdering more of us. 

Wasn’t the world a dark and evil place when Bush was president?  And didn’t Obama heal the planet?  That was the damn rhetoric we kept hearing from Democrats.

I was mocking that lie almost immediately after Obama took office.  Another guy beat me to the punch by mocking Obama’s asinine rhetoric even before the future abject disgrace took office.  And the sheer idiocy of the “Obama as world transformer” has become a more and more ridiculous lie ever since.

Everything – and I mean ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING – Obama promised was a lie from the devil.

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11 Responses to “Muslims Overrun US Embassy In Cairo, Replace US Flag With Al Qaeda Flag. Also Overrun US Consulate In Libya. Obama Apologizes As American Is Murdered”

  1. egyptsteve Says:

    Dear Christian brothers, I urge you to return to the Bible. Please do not invoke Christianity to excuse or defend greed and violence!

    Mathew 5:
    9 Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God.

    38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’
    39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
    40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well.
    41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
    43“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighborh and hate your enemy.’
    44But I tell you: Love your enemiesi and pray for those who persecute you,
    45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
    46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that?
    47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?
    48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

    Matthew 19:

    16Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”
    17“Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.”
    18“Which ones?” the man inquired.
    Jesus replied, “‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony,
    19honor your father and mother,’d and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’”
    20“All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”
    21Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
    22When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
    23Then Jesus said to his disciples, “I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

  2. William Walter Says:

    In America, we have disagreements over Abortion, Deviant Sexual Lifestyle,spoken and written words that are profanity to some/not to others! We deal with people who use violence to get their own way with our police& courts!
    Radicals from the New muslim brotherhood, the new black panthers are people here who use tactics like we have just seen in Libya, and Eygpt! All in the name of their idea of respect for God, and appointed leaders in the muslim religious factions!
    Americans walk the fine line of trusting the laws of our country to be used to effect freedom of belief of no matter what God, or no god, for all of us. We use these principles with other countries to establic how we The United States effect (not force) civil rights for eveyone!
    The Americans who go to foreign countrie know they accept danger with their posts. It is one of the ways we spread our Capitalistic way of business & our form of Government. It is worth the effort.

    The efforts of our Ambassadors,& staff are now shown in the light of rage that a group of religious people can muster! The cheering of thousands on TV at the 9/11/01 Twinn Tower collaspe showed a much wider spread particpation in the muslim religion. That wide spread participation is not held in check by muslim leaders unless the use of force against them becomes apparent! That is still not a successful deterent in all cases.

    It takes time to correct violent acts that take life!
    Americans have been conditioned to accept the taking of Human life from a mothers womb!
    Americans have not acted the way these Muslim people have acted!
    Does antone think for one minute, that if the Government of Egypt/Libya was threatened they would allow this to happen?
    Libya fell.after how many years of brutal control by a dictator?
    Egypt fell at the instigation of people who may, or may not care about civil rights for all people!
    Syria is in the process of being change by force, because a dictator is a brutal contoller of the country!

    The loss of our Ambassadors life and others is a heartache!
    Jfk’s loss of life stopped a nation in it’s everyday walk of life, because of the vile act and our mourning for Mr. Kennedy.
    Again with Robert Kennedy, a person decided to play god with life.

    We have a Presidential Election to tend to, so that we the American people can limit acts of terror here at home.

    wallyworkswell@yahoo.com

  3. Michael Eden Says:

    egyptsteve,

    Here’s my problem with what you write: you make two fundamental errors.

    First of all, if I read you correctly in your few words introducing the words of Jesus, if we respond to the murder of our ambassador, we are “defending greed and violence.” I profoundly disagree with you. We were attacked viciously and wickedly; we are NOT the bad guys and I denounce you for siding with the terrorist murderers and decrying the victims of terrorist murderers.

    Secondly, Jesus was NOT citing official government policy when He gave His teaching. Nor was He saying that the good Christian is a man who smiles benignly and tolerantly and lovingly as his children are being murdered and his wife is being raped. We DO have the right to defend ourselves; and Paul very clearly states that God gave government THE SWORD to protect its citizens and to advance justice.

    Numbers 25:1-9

    While Israel was staying in Shittim, the men began to indulge in sexual immorality with Moabite women, who invited them to the sacrifices to their gods. The people ate and bowed down before these gods. So Israel joined in worshiping the Baal of Peor. And the LORD’s anger burned against them. The LORD said to Moses, “Take all the leaders of these people, kill them and expose them in broad daylight before the LORD, so that the LORD’s fierce anger may turn away from Israel.” So Moses said to Israel’s judges, “Each of you must put to death those of your men who have joined in worshiping the Baal of Peor.” Then an Israelite man brought to his family a Midianite woman right before the eyes of Moses and the whole assembly of Israel while they were weeping at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting. When Phinehas son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron, the priest, saw this, he left the assembly, took a spear in his hand
    and followed the Israelite into the tent. He drove the spear through both of them–through the Israelite and into the woman’s body. Then the plague against the Israelites was stopped; but those who died in the plague numbered 24,000.

    And Malachi 3:6:

    “For I, the Lord, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed.”

    God hasn’t changed. The same God who not only allowed but COMMANDED the use of force and violence is still God today. Jesus did NOT teach that force was NEVER applicable or He would not have driven the money changers out of the temple by use of force Himself, would He? Rather, like Ecclesiastes tells us, there is a time and a season for everything under heaven, including a time for war and a time for peace (Ecclesiastes chapter 3).

    Christians have had a “just war theory” for centuries that is BIBLICAL. God NEVER ANYWHERE in Scriptute EVER tells governments to “turn the other cheek” when violently attacked. And I welcome you to try to prove me wrong. Rather, if a nation is attacked, that nation not only has a right but a DUTY to respond to that attack with force.

    There are times when I should turn the other cheek as a Christian when I am attacked (particularly when I am attacked as a Christian who is declaring the gospel). But if you try to break into my home and threaten my family, I will shoot you dead. And anybody who tells me that to refuse to defend my own family from evil is “good” is flat-out wrong.

  4. Michael Eden Says:

    William Walter,

    You don’t specifically say it, so I will fill in this particular blank: EVERY SINGLE act of violence that you describe – including the murder of John F. Kennedy – came from the left. We are seeing it EVERYWHERE in America today that the violent movement is the left. Tea Party vs. Occupy? The Tea Party commited no crimes versus the Occupy Movement that has had going on 8,000 arrests including for TERRORISM and MOB VIOLENCE.

    The left feels entitled to violence; they demand “change” and they have no morality to constrain them. ANY MEANS is justified by their ends.

  5. Egypt Steve Says:

    At Michael Eden: Christians developed a “just war” theory because they became severely confused between the roles and function of the Kingdom of God and the kingdoms of this world. They became seduced by the prospects of having Christianity become the official religion of the Roman Empire, but they forgot how evil the Roman Empire was at its core, and how it could not exist without violence and oppression.

    The State can defend itself like any wild animal. The
    State does not have a soul. But the State does not exist in the abstraction. It can only act through its citizens or subjects. Christian subjects or citizens of a State do evil if they allow the State to force them to do an evil act that is in contravention of the express commands of Christ. Christ has commanded us not to kill, and he has commanded us not to seek wealth.

    You know that in ancient Rome, our brothers and sisters faced death in every horrible way: crucifixion, burning, being devoured by wild animals, rather than accede to the immoral commands of the State. Would that our faith was as strong.

  6. Michael Eden Says:

    Egypt Steve,

    You may not know that the man more singled out for his faith than ANYONE by Jesus was a Roman centurion (see Luke chapter 7 and Matthew chapter 8). After praising the centurion for his faith, Jesus failed to let that poor soldier know that soldiers are evil people who fulfill an evil mission.

    Then there was Cornelius the Roman centurion in Acts chapter 10. You apparently don’t know about him, either. The very first Gentile convert to Christianity was a Roman centurion. And for some bizarre reason St. Peter forgot to tell him that as a soldier Centurion was evil and therefore had to quit the army immediately lest he take part in some war.

    You likewise apparently do not know that some of the very noble Christians you describe in Ancient Rome were Roman soldiers. Paul says his ministry was known “throughout the whole praetorian guard” (Phil 1:13). And there is no question that the reference to saints in Caesar’s household in Phil 4:22 is to those praetorians. Interestingly, Paul does not tell them that being a soldier and fulfilling a soldier’s duty was a sin.

    I suppose you could argue that neither the Lord Jesus nor St Peter nor St Paul knew that as soldiers these men had the duty to fight wars. If that was a reprehensible moral sin as you think, these soldiers would not have received praise.

    Paul says more about government and soldiers and war in Romans 13. He writes:

    Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil. Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience’ sake.

    It’s too bad you weren’t around to correct St Paul and the Word of God; because Paul DOESN’T say the sword is an evil thing; but a good thing. And those who wield it are not evil, either; which is why soldiers are NEVER condemned in Scripture.

    Further, if you bothered to read the Old Testament, you would find NUMEROUS accounts of God literally commanding soldiers to fight wars. And in total refutation of what you claim, the men of true faith were those who obeyed God and FOUGHT those wars.

    Christians developed a “just war” theory because the entirety of Scripture shows that there ARE just wars and the minds who laid out the doctrine clearly understood those Scriptures far better than YOU do.

    The Bible does NOT command Christians not to kill; the Bible commands Christians not to MURDER. That commandment specifically allows for justified killing in the context of warfare, capital punishment, and self-defense.

    You are simply fundamentally wrong in your understanding. And your flawed understanding makes you literally stand in judgment of God and call Him evil. Because there is absolutely ZERO question that God commanded His people to fight and to make war and to practice the death penalty for crimes.

  7. egyptsteve Says:

    You’re well aware that Christ has commanded us to go far farther than not to kill; he has commanded us to not resist evil, and to turn the other cheek when we are attacked.

    The fact that members of the Roman military were not rebuked specifically for membership in the military when they interacted with Christ is a nonsequiter. As you know perfectly well, all people are sinners, and all sin in every sort of way. Jesus would have had rather little time to interact with anyone, if he had had to enumerate all of their sins.

    I find it very discouraging, my brother, that you have become so adept at searching the scriptures for permission to kill. I believe you should search the scriptures, and your heart, for reasons to love — and most especially, to love and pray for those who hate you and wish you evil.

    My brother, when you search the Old Testament, you should think about what aspects of it are still applicable, and which are not, and on what basis you make such judgments.

    I suspect that you do not believe that Old Testament dietary rules are binding on us now. And I agree, because Christ has told us that “it is not what goes into a man’s mouth that defiles us; it is what comes out of a man’s mouth that defiles him.”

    By the same token, the death penalty was specifically abolished by the command of Christ, when he said in the case of the woman taken in adultery that only he who is without sin may cast the first stone. In the New Covenant, Christ has reserved this awesome power for himself.

    The only possible rule for sound interpretation is that whatever words are directly spoken by the Lord take precedence over anything else.

  8. Michael Eden Says:

    Okay, so God was evil when He said:

    “Thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did in opposing the Israelites when they came up out of Egypt. Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.'” (1 Samuel 15:2-3. See also Exodus 17:7-13.)

    And you’re literally saying either that Jesus (God) Himself says that God is evil or you are arguing that God is a true moral relativist and if God says that something is good one day and the same thing is evil the next day that “it’s all good.” Or all evil.

    There’s another possibility, of course. God is actually consistent and YOUR the one who is all wrong.

    I notice you decided to overlook the passage that I cite in Romans 13 that specifically points out that government bearing the sword is a GOOD thing and not a BAD thing. So you’ve not only got God condemning God as evil, but you’ve got Him condemning Paul as pretty darned evil too.

    You seriously need to get a better understanding of the term “non sequitur,” by the way. Because if anything, it is your explanation that is “non sequitur”:

    The fact that members of the Roman military were not rebuked specifically for membership in the military when they interacted with Christ is a nonsequiter. As you know perfectly well, all people are sinners, and all sin in every sort of way. Jesus would have had rather little time to interact with anyone, if he had had to enumerate all of their sins.

    Your last words there – “Jesus would have had rather little time to interact with anyone, if he had had to enumerate all of their sins” – finds a very different Jesus than what I find when I read my Bible. When I read my Bible, I find that Jesus was never in a hurry, but spends as much time with each person as that person needed. In fact, my Jesus is 100% different from your Jesus, because the woman at the well testified of my Jesus, “He told me all the things that I have done” (John 4:39) Which is clearly very different from your Jesus who as you say “had rather little time to interact with anyone, if he had had to enumerate all of their sins.”

    Of course, my Jesus was also the Man who fought with the money changers in the Temple and physically drove them out with a whip. Which would have been hard for your Jesus to do given that your Jesus would have kept presenting His cheeks to be slapped so He could turn the other one to them. There IS a time to turn the other cheek and to not resist evil, as Jesus taught; there is ALSO a time to fight and to drive evil out. As Jesus also taught. Your problem is that you universalize the one and abrogate the other. Which is to say that you’ve got Jesus condemning Jesus by your flawed understanding.

    Your argument is that being a soldier is a sin, but Jesus didn’t bother to point out to the centurion that being a soldier was a sin because darn it sin is just so common. But here’s the problem: I already have stated that NOT ONLY DOES THE BIBLE NO WHERE CONDEMN BEING A SOLDIER (OR PERFORMING A SOLDIER’S DUTIES) AS BEING SINFUL, BUT IN FACT SOLDIERS ARE FREQUENTLY SPECIFICALLY SINGLED OUT FOR PRAISE SPECIFICALLY FOR THEIR COURAGE AND FOR THEIR OBEDIENCE IN FIGHTING. In fact, most of the time that Israel got into the very worst trouble, it was specifically because they DIDN’T fight as they were supposed to. God very clearly told His people to utterly drive out the Amorites and the Jebusites and the Caananites and the Hittites, etc. etc., and THEY WERE SADLY TOO MUCH LIKE YOU AND NOT ENOUGH LIKE GOD COMMANDED THEM TO BE. And as a result they utterly failed to accomplish the conquest of the land that God intended to give them, and worse, they were corrupted by the EVIL that like you they refused to fight and drive out. And so in refusing to obey the one true God and fighting and killing as He very clearly commanded them to do, they began to worship the false gods of these evil people and became no different from them.

    Here’s an excellent little study on how the Israelites failed to obey God and deal with their enemies and what happened as a result from the book of Judges.

    Here’s a study on the book of Judges that I can easily encapsulate:

    The book of Judges is alarmingly relevant to today. It records the Israelites’ descent into sin and its terrible consequences. The 12 heroes of the book, both male and female, seem larger than life at times, but they were imperfect, just like us. Judges is a stern reminder that God punishes sin but is always ready to take the repentant back into his heart. […]

    Compromise, a serious problem with people today, is one of the main themes of Judges. When the Israelites failed to completely drive out the wicked nations in Canaan, they left themselves open to their influences—chiefly idolatry and immorality.

    God used the oppressors to punish the Jews. The Jews’ disloyalty to him had painful consequences, but they repeated the pattern of falling away many times.

    So your argument is utterly fallacious.

    Your explanation that the death penalty was done away with is similarly asinine. I describe that passage and lay out what is and what is not happening here. Your account that in that passage Jesus abolished the death penalty for all people for all time is one of those “was not happening” kind of things. You simply fail to understand what is happening in that passage and why Jesus said what He said.

    As for your condemnation of me:

    I find it very discouraging, my brother, that you have become so adept at searching the scriptures for permission to kill. I believe you should search the scriptures, and your heart, for reasons to love — and most especially, to love and pray for those who hate you and wish you evil.

    I find it very discouraging that you have become so poor at understanding the Scriptures for rationales to undermine what God has said.

    Your last words similarly betray a fundamental and profound misunderstanding of the Word of God:

    The only possible rule for sound interpretation is that whatever words are directly spoken by the Lord take precedence over anything else.

    In what you just said, you have just abrogated the firmly established Christian view that the Bible – THE WHOLE BIBLE – is the inspired Word of the Living God. Nope, throw that out. All the parts that AREN’T “red” in the “red letter version” are no longer inspired and we can disregard all that stuff.

    Like I keep saying: you are just WRONG. Rather, the ENTIRE BIBLE IS THE INSPIRED WORD OF GOD and you are a false teacher for declaring otherwise. When God’s prophet Isaiah declared, “The grass withers, the flower fades, but the Word of our God stands FOREVER” in Isaiah 40:8, “forever” did not mean “until Jesus comes and throws all this Old Testamenty stuff into the trash can. Furthermore, in 2 Peter 3:16, St. Peter declares that the epistles of St. Paul were SCRIPTURE. Peter pointed out that “untaught and unstable distort” such Scriptures, just as YOU are doing now with me.

    On the Christian doctrine of the Inspiration and Infallibility of Scripture, EVERY SINGLE WORD IN THE BIBLE IS THE WORD OF GOD. If the entirety of the Bible is inspired by God, how then can the words even of Jesus be “more inspired” than the inspired Word of God???? Rather, when Jesus spoke, His words were “the Word,” as He was moved by the Holy Spirit. Which was every bit as true for the Scriptures as written by Moses or Joshua or Isaiah or Paul or Peter as they were for the words of Jesus. Every single writer was participating in what 2 Timothy 3:16 referred to as “God-breathed.”

    The Bible is either inspired by God or it is NOT inspired by God. And what you have just done is to say that the vast majority of the Bible is not in fact inspired by God, such that Jesus repudiates the Bible. But it isn’t Jesus who repudiates the rest of the Word of God; it is YOU by your deeply flawed understanding.

    No, I’m not doing what you claim I am: “become so adept at searching the scriptures for permission to kill.” Rather, I am doing what you refuse to do: I am taking the entire Word of God seriously and in its context. And therefore I realize as Ecclesiastes 3 teaches that:

    To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
    A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
    A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
    A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
    A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
    A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
    A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
    A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

    It’s too bad you can’t understand that. Instead, you say that Ecclesiastes is no longer inspired and it’s just like dietary laws.

    The great theologian Dietrich Bonhoeffer understood, though. And that is why he participated in the plot to assasinate the evil madman Adolf Hitler to try to save both the Jewish and the German people. And a great many heroes of that same generation understood by realizing it was time to take up rifles and fight to defeat the evil that they saw striving to overtake the world.

    As I’ve stated, there is NOWHERE in Scripture where those soldiers who took up rifles to defend their nation and fight evil are condemned in Scripture. NOWHERE.

    In conclusion, I will refute you by your own “logic”:

    Think of the case that actually happened in Chesire, Connecticut.

    Two men invade a home. They repeatedly rape the mother and two daughters, one of whom was 11 years old. Then the rapist-murderers douse the girls with gasoline and start a fire knowing they will be burned alive.

    These evil men got the death penalty that is both biblically deserved and deserved by justice. But let’s do this according to Egypt Steve’s “loving way.”

    The husband managed to escape and tried to get help. By the time he was able to get that help, of course, it was too late. His home was in ashes and his entire family was murdered.

    When he heard that the police had caught the men responsible, he raced to the jail. “Where are they?!?” he screamed. “Where are the monsters who murdered my family?”

    “We left them go,” the police replied.

    “You WHAT?”

    “We let them go. We’re a loving police department, you see. Based on our understanding of the Bible and the teachings of Jesus, there shouldn’t even BE any police departments. Because of course police departments use violence to catch criminals and we should turn the other cheek and never resist evil.”

    “But… but… but…” The husband was dumbstruck at this moral stupidity and evil in the name of Jesus. “But why did you let them go?” He finally managed.

    “That’s easy. Just read your Bible, sir. Jesus not only told us to turn the other cheek, which cops obviously cannot do and do their jobs, and Jesus not only told us not to resist evil, which again cops even more obviously cannot do and do their jobs, but He also told us that we can’t ever kill anyone for any reason ever. And it occurred to us to keep reading in the same vein and we realized that nowhere does Jesus EVER tell us to put people in prison, either.”

    “But…”

    “Does Jesus ever tell us to put people in prison, sir?”

    “Not specifically, no… But…”

    “Sir, you just aren’t a very good Christian unlike us. Which is why we’re shutting down this police department as soon as you leave. There’s been way too much ‘evil resisting’ and not nearly enough ‘cheek-turning’ in this city. And only by shutting down can we ensure there will be plenty of evil to not resist and plenty of opportunities to turn the other cheek for everybody.”

    “But… my wife…. My…my daughters.”

    “Are in heaven now, sir. At least they are if they were better than you and turned the other cheek to their rapists and didn’t resist evil as they were being raped and murdered.”

    Sir, Jesus told us to forgive these men. And so we’ve forgiven them. And just as Jesus doesn’t hold our sins against us, we will not hold these men’s sins against them. We let them go because we’re a loving police department.”

    That would NOT be a loving police department, though. That would be a hateful police department. And the reason that police department would be hateful and why the world would be hateful if it followed that logic, Egypt Steve, is because without justice and without fighting evil we would end up with the most evil and the most depraved world possibly imaginable.

    And that is why God ordained government to carry the sword and to use it as Paul stated in Romans 13. It is also why a husband not only has a right but a moral DUTY to fight to protect his wife and children.

    Ecclesiastes chapter 3 is right. You are wrong. It is YOU who are completely wrong.

  9. egyptsteve Says:

    I sense that you reply in anger, brother. Pride, anger, and haughtiness are not becoming of a servant of the Lord!

    There is certainly a difference between Jesus, who was without sin, driving out the moneychangers, and you or I, who are full of sin, taking up weapons against our brothers.

    It is sad indeed that you must turn the scriptures inside out and upside down to explain away the clear and direct words of the Master.

    Christ came for a reason: “Behold, I have made all things new.”

    I remind you that whoever would save his life will lose it. Whoever lays down his life will gain eternal life.

    Nations, personal possessions, even families, are things of this world. But the Kingdom of God is not of this world. What is your profit if you gain the world but lose your soul?

  10. Michael Eden Says:

    egyptsteve,

    The fact that you have absolutely no response to the overwhelming case I presented besides your slogans that have nothing to do with what we were debating tells me that this discussion has run its course.

    You are again wrong: Jesus came as “the Son of Man.” Jesus came to live a perfect HUMAN life in our place so He could die in our place as the Second Adam. Which is to say that Jesus did what was appropriate for a man to do.

    I notice you didn’t have too much to say about either the fact that I just demonstrated how terribly you butchered the doctrine of Inspiration of the Bible – which is a terrible and tragic thing for you to be doing. 2 Timothy 3:16, which I cited last time, says, “ALL Scripture is inspired by God…” Not just the parts quoting Jesus and not just the parts you happen to like. The inspired writings of Paul and the inspired writings of the prophets are every bit as “inspired” as the inspired words of Jesus. Because the Bible is either inspired, inerrant and infallible or it is NOT.

    You actually DO engender anger. Because you create a stumbling block of your own invention. The stumbling block of Christianity is that 1) every single human being is a sinner who needs to be forgiven by God lest he or she perish in hell; and 2) Jesus is the ONLY provision for our sin and so no other religion or religious system can save you apart from Jesus. You manufacture a third stumbling block: every husband or father who would fight to save the lives of his family are non-Christians who need a lecture from you. And yeah, that more than irritates me.

    You cited the dietary laws previously. Yes, in the New Testament dietary laws and a few customs are abolished as having been fulfilled. Christians have understood from the times of the apostles that Christ fulfilled the purpose of those traditions (that were exclusively for Israel) and the New Testament says on more than one occasion that they have been abolished (Eg. Acts 10:9-16). I have repeatedly challenged you to show me JUST ONE TIME that being a soldier – the incumbant duty of a soldier being to fight – is specifically condemned. Soldiers are mentioned repeatedly in the New Testament just as they are repeatedly PRAISED for fighting in the Old Testament. And never ONCE are they condemned. And the reason is because killing is NOT a “dietary law” nor is it “ceremonial.” It relates to the MORAL LAW. And the moral law of God stands just as much today as was at any time in the Old Testament. Jesus did NOT abolish or abrogate the moral law of which killing is very much a part. We know that as Christians our lives should not be characterized by violence or by wrath or by revenge. Far from it. But to state as some categorical fact that Jesus therefore said that no violence can be justified at ANY time makes Jesus a liar (again, even by the example of His own life as the money changers who felt His whip would point out).

    I therefore cite AGAIN the case of the husband and father in Connecticut (which again is based on a true shocking attack of a family) since you have no answer to its obvious conclusion:

    Two men invade a home. They repeatedly rape the mother and two daughters, one of whom was 11 years old. Then the rapist-murderers douse the girls with gasoline and start a fire knowing they will be burned alive.

    These evil men got the death penalty that is both biblically deserved and deserved by justice. But let’s do this according to Egypt Steve’s “loving way.”

    The husband managed to escape and tried to get help. By the time he was able to get that help, of course, it was too late. His home was in ashes and his entire family was murdered.

    When he heard that the police had caught the men responsible, he raced to the jail. “Where are they?!?” he screamed. “Where are the monsters who murdered my family?”

    “We left them go,” the police replied.

    “You WHAT?”

    “We let them go. We’re a loving police department, you see. Based on our understanding of the Bible and the teachings of Jesus, there shouldn’t even BE any police departments. Because of course police departments use violence to catch criminals and we should turn the other cheek and never resist evil.”

    “But… but… but…” The husband was dumbstruck at this moral stupidity and evil in the name of Jesus. “But why did you let them go?” He finally managed.

    “That’s easy. Just read your Bible, sir. Jesus not only told us to turn the other cheek, which cops obviously cannot do and do their jobs, and Jesus not only told us not to resist evil, which again cops even more obviously cannot do and do their jobs, but He also told us that we can’t ever kill anyone for any reason ever. And it occurred to us to keep reading in the same vein and we realized that nowhere does Jesus EVER tell us to put people in prison, either.”

    “But…”

    “Does Jesus ever tell us to put people in prison, sir?”

    “Not specifically, no… But…”

    “Sir, you just aren’t a very good Christian unlike us. Which is why we’re shutting down this police department as soon as you leave. There’s been way too much ‘evil resisting’ and not nearly enough ‘cheek-turning’ in this city. And only by shutting down can we ensure there will be plenty of evil to not resist and plenty of opportunities to turn the other cheek for everybody.”

    “But… my wife…. My…my daughters.”

    “Are in heaven now, sir. At least they are if they were better than you and turned the other cheek to their rapists and didn’t resist evil as they were being raped and murdered.”

    Sir, Jesus told us to forgive these men. And so we’ve forgiven them. And just as Jesus doesn’t hold our sins against us, we will not hold these men’s sins against them. We let them go because we’re a loving police department.”

    That is EXACTLY THE KIND OF POLICE DEPARTMENT AND WORLD THAT YOU HAVE REPEATEDLY DEMANDED.

    That is NOT a loving police department; it is a hateful one. Your understanding of Scripture is likewise not a loving one, but a hateful one. Ultimately if there is no justice, there is no love. Which again is why God ordained governments to bear and use the SWORD to create a climate where human beings CAN be loving, as Paul stated in Romans 13:4. But you clearly think you know so much better than God.

    Your assertion that “families are things of this world” is so false it is unreal. God created Adam and EVE and told them to mulitiply and fill the earth (Genesis 1:28). God very specifically ordained the family and it very much is NOT just a “thing of this world.” You just pretty much make up “biblical truth” right out of your pointy little head, don’t you???

    Here’s another example from Scripture on a different but intimately related subject: Christians should be people who tell the truth, just as Christians should not be walking around killing people as a general rule. But consider Joshua chapter 2 and the story of Rahab the harlot. This woman chose to identify with and protect the people of God and she did both by lying to her king (Joshua 2:4-7). So she’s a “liar” and God condemns her, right? Wrong. God rewards her lavishly. Not only is she in heaven, not only is this woman in the faith hall of fame – literally for “lying” – but she is given the ultimate reward of being in the line of Messiah Jesus. The world is sometimes a tough place where morally wise people must make moral decisions in an immoral world. And sometimes the most “moral” thing to do is to lie. Should lies characterize our lives? Absolutely not. But here’s the thing: during World War II when the Nazis were going door-to-door and asking, “Are you sheltering any Jews? Do you know of anyone who is sheltering any Jews?” And there were people who were WICKED and told the Nazis the truth and thus gave up Jews to a miserable death and there were people who were RIGHTEOUS who looked those Nazis right in the eye and lied up a storm to identify with and protect the people of God just as Rahab the harlot had done. And in the exact same vein, there are times when the WICKED will refuse to kill in a just cause not because they are wise but because they are fools, when the RIGHTEOUS would pull that trigger to save and defend the people of God.

    Can I find a gazillion scriptures that tell me not to lie? Yes, I can. But nevertheless there is a clearly described time when I am RIGHTEOUS in telling a lie, as Joshua chapter 2, Hebrews chapter 11 (vs 31), and Matthew 1 and Luke 3 amply document. And in the exact same way, there come times in a fallen and wicked world in which the most moral thing one can do is kill the wicked to save the lives of the innocent. Which again is why neither soldiers nor police are EVER condemned ANYWHERE in Scripture for their role in serving as the servants who bear the sword in Romans 13. Just as no one is EVER specifically condemned for fighting to protect their own families or even their own lives (for the record, few people have ever died by being slapped in the cheek). And for the record, if Jesus had intended His words, “Do not resist evil” be taken as a universal statement applying to every single possible circumstance, there is no way He would have broken His very own rule by physically driving the money changers out of the Temple by literally making a whip and lashing them.

    Here’s another example that might be even better. In Luke 14:26 Jesus says, “If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.” Okay. You said Jesus wants me to love, but here He says I should not only hate, but literally hate my parents and my brother and even my own wife and kids. Or let me give you another direction to go in; JESUS IS SPEAKING IN HYPERBOLE. Jesus is teaching that no matter how much we love our families, nothing -NOTHING – should come between our relationship with our Lord and our Savior who is literally more than life itself to us. Jesus isn’t literally saying “hate your families” just like He’s not literally saying that in absolutely EVERY SITUATION YOU ARE TO REFUSE TO LIFT A FINGER TO RESIST EVIL OR THAT THERE CAN BE NO SITUATION IN WHICH YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO DEFEND YOURSELF OR SOMEONE ELSE. It’s called hyperbole; He’s using exaggeration to make a point – in the above two cases being that violence should certainly not be a defining part of the Christian’s life the way it is a Muslim’s life as called upon by Muhammad.

    Here’s a couple more examples:

    And He was saying to them all, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow Me. — Luke 9:23

    “You have heard that it was said, ‘YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY’; but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. “If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. “If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell. — Mathew 5:27-30

    Now, having gone to the Egyptsteve school of hermeneutics, I would be compelled to interpret these passages as follows:

    In regards to Luke 9:23, I see that to show that I have sufficently denied myself I must get myself crucified. And if I haven’t been crucified yet, well, I just haven’t done a very good job denying myself. You could sum this view up as “The only good Christian is a dead Christian.” But to make it even harder, I’ve got to carry my cross to the execution site, die, and then rise from the dead to do it again the next day and then the next.

    But that Matthew 5 passage tells me that when they put me up on that cross, I’d better be blind and have a couple of hooks where my hands used to be. Because there isn’t a man other than Jesus Himself who wouldn’t need to gouge out both of his eyes and then chop off his hands.

    But whoops, I forgot Matthew 19:11

    “For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother’s womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it.”

    So having just said “Ouch!” in a VERY high-pitched voice, I return to the conversation. Now, following the Egyptsteve approach, I’m blind, handless, castrated, and I’m hoping somebody will crucify me to I can show that I really, REALLY am denying myself enough.

    Not very many people have been so stupid that it didn’t occur to them that maybe Jesus was using hyperbole to drive home His points more forcefully. I wish it would occur to you, Egyptsteve.

    You are not only wrong, Egyptsteve, but terribly wrong. And yes, as a man who has been both a soldier and a police officer, your moral idiocy makes me angry as I see somebody blathering idiocy in the name of Jesus. When I see somebody throwing up stumbling blocks in addition to the true faith and saying, “You have to be like this” I get angry.

    In any event, I’m done with you. Given that you simply do not bother to even TRY to answer the points I made in my last comment, there is clearly no point trying to make more points to you. It is only possible to have a valid argument with someone who actually interacts with you – and you clearly were not capable of doing that in defense of your foolish position.

  11. Michael Eden Says:

    I meant to say a little more about this issue of radical pacifism a couple of days ago, but got sidetracked by other things.

    Let me approach this from a more philosophical side:

    Consider the story of Leo Johnson who was confronted by a hater with a gun who came into the Family Research Council HQ with the intent to execute a mass homicide. Leo – in spite of being wounded with gunfire – tackled the rabid shooter and held him down until help arrived.

    Was that a good thing or a bad thing Leo did? And was it good or bad for other Christians to help Leo deal with this hater?

    Well, according to Egyptsteve, it was NOT a good or noble thing. It was a sin. Leo should have turned the other cheek. He should have refused to resist evil and allowed himself to be shot to death so his killer could go on to murder numerous other innocent people. And likewise those who rushed to help Leo by physically grabbing the shooter. What kind of “turn the other cheek” example was that? Those sinners resisted evil, darn it!!!

    If it sounds like I’m mocking Egyptsteve, it’s because I am. His is a truly morally idiotic view that turns heroism into sin and virtue into vice.

    Here’s another way to approach this: does the radical pacifist like Egyptsteve view justice as evil? Is it evil to apprehend the evildoer? Is it evil to confront and overcome the murderer or rapist who is about to perpetuate yet another act of horror on yet another innocent person?

    I don’t know what Egyptsteve would answer. When he refused to deal with anything I was trying to tell him, I blocked him. But either he thinks that justice itself is an evil (because it would somehow violate the will of God) or there is only one other alternative: that justice is good, but Christians should have nothing to do with it.

    If someone is doing evil on this view, then it is good and meets with God’s approval if SOMEBODY steps in and acts to stop the violence with a necessary act of violence. But Christians shouldn’t do it. Someone else should stand up, anybody but a Christian who should be meekly turning the other cheek and refusing to do anything that might be seen as “resisting evil.”

    I suppose what I would be asking on this view is, “Who is the GOOD person here?” And the answer in any morally intelligent view would be, “The non-Christian who confronted evil for the sake of those pathetic Christians.”

    Overcoming evil IS an intrinsic good. But on Egyptsteve’s radical pacifist view, that intrinsic good literally becomes an evil.

    If you look over my responding comments, you will find that I presented a great deal of Scripture. Which Egyptsteve refused to deal with beyond asserting/accusing that I “twisted Scripture.”

    God is moral, and God is just. Love is ultimately impossible without justice. That’s why Egyptsteve’s radical pacifism is literally evil.

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