Mormon Church Finally Acknowledges Its Founder Joseph Smith Was An Adulterer And A Child Molester

(Regarding Joseph Smith’s alleged first vision where celestial personages appeared to him) . . . “My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right — and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong, and the personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in His sight: that those professors were all corrupt . . .” (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol. 1, p. 5-6).

And today we’re able to say, “Yeah, right.  And look who’s talking…”

Mormonism is a terrible sham and I am always amazed when I see a person standing at my door in his white dress shirt and black tie who in spite of all appearances of intellect is a completely brainwashed idiot.

It has often been said, “The only thing wrong with Christianity is Christians.”  And – aside from the rather obvious fact that this charge could fit ALL groups and ALL professions whether we want to talk about black people or white people or police officers or teachers or nurses – it’s true.  Many Christians are hypocrites who too often do not act out their faith in their daily lives.  According to the Christian Scriptures, Christians are filled with the Holy Spirit when we’re saved to new life in Christ.  But the same Christian Scriptures also point out the fact that the sin nature remains and that the temptation to sin will remain a part of our human natures and our lives until the day we leave this earth.

Another fact of human nature is that we do not have perfect knowledge and if you put a group of people into a room and have them talk in detail about the beliefs most important to their lives, they will invariably all disagree with each other.  And to the extent that they haven’t disagreed yet merely means that they haven’t talked long enough or deeply enough yet.  People who agree to nine levels of sub-headings will disagree on the tenth level.  Or the eleventh.  Or the twelfth.  Because we’re all ultimately different.

Joseph Smith was a religious charlatan who exploited those two facts of human nature when he fabricated his own religion.

It has always amazed me how otherwise intelligent people could buy into such a fraud.

I still think of the Branch Davidian cult brainwashed by David Koresh:

Doyle sits in his cluttered living room, detective paperbacks, tomes on theology and Laurel & Hardy videos crammed on bookshelves. The only item that has room to breathe is a photograph of his 18-year-old daughter, Shari.

I wondered, I asked, ‘Is this God or is this horny old David?’
–Clive Doyle, Branch Davidian

She was one of Koresh’s “wives.”

In the photo, Shari is flaxen haired, flushed and smiling, hugging the family dog.

That Koresh bedded his daughter makes Doyle shift in his seat, and when he speaks of it, his jaw tightens.

Doyle says his daughter started having sex with Koresh when she was 14. Koresh fathered at least 13 children with sect followers and engaged in sexual acts with underage Davidian girls, according to the Justice Department, numerous affidavits of Davidians and interviews CNN conducted with survivors. Watch a video Koresh recorded of himself with his children inside the compound during the siege. Video

Davidian Kiri Jewel testified during 1995 congressional hearings on the siege that Koresh slept in a bed with women and children, and she believed that he had impregnated a 14-year-old. Koresh, she said, often talked about how the young girls at the compound pleased him sexually. Jewel described in graphic detail how Koresh sexually assaulted her. She testified that she wasn’t afraid of getting pregnant; she was too young, she explained. She’d not even started menstruating yet.

Doyle insists that his daughter Shari, even at a young age, was capable of deciding whether to have sex with Koresh. The teen was also clearheaded, he says, when she chose to remain inside the compound despite having the chance to leave.

“She wanted to be with David and to hear and follow the message,” her father says.

There is silence for a moment. Doyle knows that trying to justify Koresh having sex with underage girls incites nothing but outrage from nonbelievers. And, initially, when David began preaching a message that his holy seed must be spread to any girl he preferred, married or in pigtails, Doyle admits he was bothered by it.

“I wondered, I asked, ‘Is this God or is this horny old David?’ ”

But Doyle’s concern didn’t last long.

“I couldn’t argue because he’d show you where it was in the Bible.”

I still marvel that men sat placidly while this false messiah had sex with their wives and with their young daughters.  I wonder what went so mentally and morally wrong with them.

One of the beautiful passages in the Bible declares that “To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven.”

We find in the Bible acts of savagery, to the point of genocide.  There is a time for war and there is a time for peace.  And yeah, there is a time for girls to become women and become wives.

But not to a roach like David Koresh.  And not to a roach like Joseph Smith.

And you just shake your head and wonder how people can so butcher Scripture that they allow a self-serving malignant narcissist to take over their lives and their wives’ lives and their daughters’ lives.

I know you don’t know me, so allow me to tell you one personal detail about myself: if I’m in a church and my pastor comes up to me and points to a passage in the Old Testament and declares that he gets to have sex with my wife or with my fourteen-year-old daughter, I will (in this order): 1) punch the pastor’s lights out; 2) tell everyone in the congregation and the outside community that this “pastor” is a demonic fraud; and 3) walk out of that church and never darken its doors again unless and until that pastor and every elder who in any way supports him is thrown out.

It’s really not that hard.  Christians have held a very simple principle for two millennia: if an Old Testament passage remains valid for New Testament Christian believers, it will be restated in the New Testament.

If you want to try to show me where you can practice polygamy, have sex with women who are the wives of other men, have sex with my wife, or have sex with my young daughter in the New Testament, you have at it.

I’m standing right here, waiting.  Okay, I’m sitting.  Because it’s gonna take you a long, loooooong time to come up with anything.

Christians do not belong to the Old Covenant.  God understands that times change.  He revealed Himself in a progressive way first to Adam and to and through the Patriarchs and then to and through Moses.  There was a season and a purpose under heaven for that Old Covenant, but it ended.

The Old Testament is crystal clear that God was going to inaugurate a New Covenant:

“Behold, days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD. — Jeremiah 31:31-32

The Book of Ezekiel foreshadows that New Covenant by describing the key detail that would happen only in that New Covenant:

“I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. — Ezekiel 36:27 (see Acts 2:38-39 for context in the New Testament).

It was through the work of Jesus on the cross that we can have God’s Spirit within us.  And through nothing else can we have that Spirit.

In another example of the Old Covenant ending, we have a vision of God’s glory leaving the Temple in Ezekiel chapter 10.  Israel had rejected God and God would not dwell in the midst of their rebellion and sin.  Ezekiel prophetically described that the glory of God would one day return to the Temple in Ezekiel chapter 43, but that event has clearly not happened as the Temple described has yet to be built.  When you consider the dimensions of that future Temple as described in Ezekiel 43, when you consider it would have no wall of partition between Jews and Gentiles and no court of women, for instance, it has clearly never been rebuilt.  True Christians join Jews in believing that one day there will be such a Temple, but it will not be built until Messiah returns as King of kings.  Anyway, the glory of God did not reappear to Israel in any form until it arrived in the form of Jesus of Nazareth (see Hebrews 1:3 and 2 Corinthians 4:6), the divine Son of God, who came to live a perfect life in our place and then take our sin upon Himself so that He could suffer and die for our sins and we in exchange could rise to new life with Him and through Him.  Jesus assumed a human nature in addition to His divine nature, but God can’t stay dead.  And so Jesus rose bodily from the grave.  And everyone who calls on His name can rise with Him, such that death has no power over them.

The Glory of God departed from the Temple in Ezekiel 10.  And the glory of God never returned to any man-made place since.

In Ezekiel 43 the glory of the Lord will re-enter through that very same East gate that it departed from in Ezekiel 10.  When Jesus entered Jerusalem as the Messiah during His First Advent, He entered through that same East Gate through which the glory of the Lord had departed (Luke 19:28-48).  And when He was rejected as Messiah, He too departed through the East gate (see Matthew 21:12-17).  And then Jesus wept over Jerusalem (Matthew 23:37-39) and said, “From now on you will not see Me until you say, “Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD” (v. 39).

The Temple of Ezekiel will be built by Jesus Christ after He returns as King of kings and Lord of lords.  And His national people Israel will say, “Blessed IS He who comes in the name of the LORD!”

Anyway, true Christians are not bound by any Old Testament practice that is not affirmed by the New Covenant as revealed in the New Testament.  We don’t have to keep the dietary laws, we don’t have to practice animal sacrifice, we don’t have to have to wipe out the Amorites, etc.  And anyone who tells you that it is okay to marry polygamously or that they can have relations with your wife or your young daughter is a demoniac who perverts the Scriptures rather than a Christian who follows the Scriptures.

In any event, let’s consider what the Mormon church acknowledges about their founder and the founder of their entire system of theology, Joseph Smith:

The Mormon church acknowledges in a new essay that founder Joseph Smith had a teenage bride and was married to other men’s wives during the faith’s early polygamous days, a recognition of an unflattering part of its roots that historians have chronicled for years.

And let us consider what the Old Testament Scriptures that Joseph Smith was illegitimately exploiting to satiate his own lusts had to say about how he should have been treated by that Old Testament system:

Leviticus 20:10 — “If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife–with the wife of his neighbor–both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.

Oops.  Sorry, Joe.  But we’re going to have to stone you now.

“An unflattering part” indeed.

Not that the rest of the Mormon Church’s history has ever been anything other than “unflattering.”  Because from a diseased root grows a diseased tree.

Mormonism is a sham revealed by a demon through a wicked man.  The very name “Mormon” actually conveys this, because the demon’s name was “Moroni.”  Mormons are really following a demon.  And the life of their founder illustrates it nicely.  Joseph Smith was far more a petty con-man than a prophet of God and the founder of a new religion.

As do ALL satanic false religions, Mormonism denies the true deity of Jesus.  Through Mormonism, Satan literally drags Jesus down to his mere equal by claiming that Jesus is the spirit-brother of Lucifer rather than the divine God the Son.

The Scriptures ARE the Word of God.  And every word of God’s Word is true.  In addition to the Scriptures – and in particular the New Testament Scriptures which define true belief for Christian believers – we have the historic first Seven universal ecumenical councils of Christianity in which the orthodox, the TRUE, nature of Christianity was clearly defined and delineated.  The main heresy of Mormonism – the rejection that Jesus was merely a created being – was ruled by the Early Church and by the Church Fathers nearly two thousand years ago.

Don’t be a fool.  Don’t be deceived by a fools’ religion.

 

 

 

 

 

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18 Responses to “Mormon Church Finally Acknowledges Its Founder Joseph Smith Was An Adulterer And A Child Molester”

  1. truthunites Says:

    Back in 2012 I was talking to some politically liberal Christians who said to me, “How could you vote for a mormon like Romney? At least Obama is a Christian.”

    My thoughts at the time were: Obama is not a Christian even though he professes to be one. And I’m not really voting for Romney as much as I am VOTING against liberalism and Obama.

    I despise RINO Romney, but he was the best chance to stop Obola liberalism back in 2012.

  2. dog walker Says:

    I hate to admit it but I have been tempted by a curiosity towards Mormonism. I mean those guys are so wholesome looking and kind. They visit my moms nursing home with their kids. They teach their kids to do good works. They help the poor. A destitute pal of mine found work through them and they caught him up on his rent.

    Nice guys … but…

    Joseph Smith that is a weird story. He instituted the doctrinr of plural marriage among his following. Guess who was the last to find out about the doctrine? His wife, Emma Hale. Weird.

    That caused a split in his church which caused a chain of events, burning of a printing press, ultimately the death of J. Smith.

    I have a book about it. It is kind of fascinating. Mormons won’t read that book though. History doesn’t trump faith. I guess that is how that goes.

  3. dog walker Says:

    When a prophet or leader errors, it was because he was acting as a man and not as a prophet. There’s no indication until after the fact as to whether he was acting as one or the other, so you should always presume he’s acting as prophet until proven otherwise

  4. dog walker Says:

    I shouldn’t be shooting my mouth off on the internet when I have had 25 oz of beer and a shot of whiskey but…

    I tell you what I like about the Mormons. The Utah war. Look it up.
    These guys got kicked out of everywhere they ever went. Can’t say as I wouldn’t have kicked them out. But I think it was Missouri that issued an extermination order. It was legal to kill Mormons. So they high tailed it on out of there. What else could they do?

    Imagine that. In this country, an extermination order. Weird eh?

    But they emigrated to Utah and when they got there it was do or die. This is where we make our stand. I think this was before the civil war.

    So I don’t know. This kind of reinforces my attraction to Mormonism even though I am fully aware that they are Biblically dysfunctional. After having been chased across the continent they were willing to make a stand and throw their very lives into the fray… what choice did they have… for their beliefs.

    I don’t get that from mainstream Christianity. What the heck am I talking about? I know little of Christianity… or commitment. Dang!

  5. PolitiJim (@politiJim) Says:

    I agree with everything you say here. But your omissions are glaring.

    First, the utter disdain and contempt shown to Mormons isn’t quite reflecting the love of Jesus. I’m not talking about despicable men who use women or commit incest. The disdain is well put there. I’m talking about Mormons in general.

    Having many Mormon friends over the past 20+ years (and business partners who families are Mormons) I must say the vast majority have no idea who – or what they are serving. In my experience at least 3/4ths truly think they believe in Jesus. This kind of monolithic condemnation of ALL Mormons doesn’t do a thing to help them know the power and relationship of the real Jesus – or the dangers of their church.

    Secondly, the Mormon hierarchy itself has had somewhat of a major awakening and – for the most part – has turned far away from it’s original worship of the Smith’s writings and life. Hence the public disavowal of Joseph Smith’s past. The President of Fuller Theological Seminary (which also has it’s shortcomings) has been having a decade dialogue with theologians from BYU and talks about many of the changes in Mormon doctrine over the past 20 years. It’s his conclusion that they do – now – generally believe in the divinity of Christ and, more importantly make Christ the central focus of almost all theological studies and teachings (http://cnn.it/1u4enFo) . I’m not advocating here that we welcome them fully into acceptance any more than we do the Catholic church whose leader recently endorsed the very unscientific (but secular prevailing view) of macro-evolution over the story in Genesis. These people – to some large extent – ARE making a move toward biblical Christianity. If that is the case (a big “IF”) – then Jesus commands us to deal with them in an entirely different way than a Pharisee or arrogant religious fool

    If you have a cousin who has gone from methamphetamine to marijuana – I’m guessing you will have ZERO input into his life by still condemning him as a “druggie.” He certainly can’t recognize ANY of the “good news” you claim to have in your possession, much lest anything of the Christ’s love and mercy – so no doubt he – like you have with Mormons – will now assume ALL Christians are sarcastic, pompous and condemning scorners and lets’ face it – why the hell would he want to be like you?

    Paul, I think, gives the best possible position on how to speak to those who are truly seeking God – regardless of their historical misinformation.

    Corinthians 2: When I came to you, brothers, announcing the testimony of God to you, I did not come with brilliance of speech or wisdom. For I didn’t think it was a good idea to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. I came to you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling. My speech and my proclamation were not with persuasive words of wisdom but with a powerful demonstration by the Spirit, so that your faith might not be based on men’s wisdom but on God’s power.

  6. FMC Says:

    If Smith actually did meet Moroni, then Moroni was a demonic being, a familiar spirit. It is also possible that Smith, being the con man that he was, could of just made up the entire story. Also, there is a lot of information that Smith stole many of Mormonism’s secrets from the Masons as Smith was himself a 32nd degree Mason. Whatever the case, Smith was inspired and guided by demons and Mormonism, like Freemasonry, is nothing but a doctrine of demons.

    I have been visited several times by Mormons. They try to give me the Book of Mormon, but I refuse unless they agree to exchange my literature that Mormonism is a cult for theirs. I have debated them every time and it is usually just a waste of time as they are most thoroughly brainwashed. I still enjoy the debate, though, and they usually leave thinking that I am some kind of nut. Only if they knew that what I was saying was actually true and what kind of predicament they are truly in.

  7. Michael Eden Says:

    First, the utter disdain and contempt shown to Mormons isn’t quite reflecting the love of Jesus. I’m not talking about despicable men who use women or commit incest. The disdain is well put there. I’m talking about Mormons in general.

    Politijim,

    I never say ANYTHING about any individual Mormons other than the very wicked man Joseph Smith, upon whom Mormon theology inherently depends. And I rebuke you for falsely claiming that I did otherwise.

    The Bible is rather straightforward about how to handle false teachers and false teaching in a manner that you very clearly do not understand. The Scriptures that tell us that there is a time and a purpose for every season under heaven surely do teach that there is a time for a heart-to-heart with Mormons and other believers/teachers of false religion. BUT THERE IS A TIME TO CONFRONT THEM AND REFUTE THEM AND POINT OUT THAT THEY ARE LIARS WHO ARE SPREADING LIES IN ORDER TO PROTECT THE FLOCK.

    You care so much for your Mormon friend that you have no compassion whatsoever for the hundreds of people that Mormon “witnesses” to. And it is to those people I am speaking to about these purveyors of lies about “another Jesus” (2 Cor 11:4). And I’ll let you argue with St. Paul who says, “Let him be accursed” which literally means, “Let him be damned by God.”

    Here are just SOME of the passages regarding false teaching:

    Bible Verses About False Teachers

    Galatians 1:8 – But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

    2 Corinthians 10:4-5 – (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

    1 John 4:1 – Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

    1 Timothy 6:3-5 – If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, [even] the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; he is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

    2 Peter 2:1 – But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

    Ephesians 5:11 – And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove [them].

    2 Timothy 3:5 – Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

    2 Corinthians 11:13-15 – For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

    Jude 1:4 – For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

    1 John 4:1-3 – Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: and every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

    2 Timothy 3:13 – But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

    1 John 2:26-27 – These [things] have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

    2 Peter 2:1-3 – But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

    Hebrews 2:14 – Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

    Philippians 3:1-2 – Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed [is] not grievous, but for you [it is] safe. Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.

    Romans 16:18 – For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

    Romans 16:17 – Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

    Jude 1:12-13 – These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds [they are] without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

    2 John 1:7-11 – For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into [your] house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

    Acts 25:7 – And when he was come, the Jews which came down from Jerusalem stood round about, and laid many and grievous complaints against Paul, which they could not prove.

    Acts 24:5 – For we have found this man [a] pestilent [fellow], and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes:

    Acts 20:29 – For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

    Acts 17:5-7 – But the Jews which believed not, moved with envy, took unto them certain lewd fellows of the baser sort, and gathered a company, and set all the city on an uproar, and assaulted the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people. (Read More…)

    Acts 16:21 – And teach customs, which are not lawful for us to receive, neither to observe, being Romans.

    Acts 16:20 – And brought them to the magistrates, saying, These men, being Jews, do exceedingly trouble our city,

    Acts 6:13 – And set up false witnesses, which said, This man ceaseth not to speak blasphemous words against this holy place, and the law:

    Acts 6:11 – Then they suborned men, which said, We have heard him speak blasphemous words against Moses, and [against] God.

    Luke 18:20 – Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.

    Luke 12:40 – Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

    Luke 3:14 – And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse [any] falsely; and be content with your wages.

    Mark 14:54-59 – And Peter followed him afar off, even into the palace of the high priest: and he sat with the servants, and warmed himself at the fire. (Read More…)

    Matthew 26:59-61 – Now the chief priests, and elders, and all the council, sought false witness against Jesus, to put him to death; (Read More…)

    Matthew 19:18 – He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

    Matthew 15:19 – For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

    Matthew 7:15 – Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

    Zechariah 5:4 – I will bring it forth, saith the LORD of hosts, and it shall enter into the house of the thief, and into the house of him that sweareth falsely by my name: and it shall remain in the midst of his house, and shall consume it with the timber thereof and the stones thereof.

    Zechariah 5:3 – Then said he unto me, This [is] the curse that goeth forth over the face of the whole earth: for every one that stealeth shall be cut off [as] on this side according to it; and every one that sweareth shall be cut off [as] on that side according to it.

    Jeremiah 23:1-40 – Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD. (Read More…)

    Jeremiah 5:30-31 – A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land; (Read More…)

    Proverbs 25:18 – A man that beareth false witness against his neighbour [is] a maul, and a sword, and a sharp arrow.

    Proverbs 24:28 – Be not a witness against thy neighbour without cause; and deceive [not] with thy lips.

    Proverbs 21:28 – A false witness shall perish: but the man that heareth speaketh constantly.

    Proverbs 19:28 – An ungodly witness scorneth judgment: and the mouth of the wicked devoureth iniquity.

    Proverbs 19:22 – The desire of a man [is] his kindness: and a poor man [is] better than a liar.

    Proverbs 18:5 – [It is] not good to accept the person of the wicked, to overthrow the righteous in judgment.

    Proverbs 14:25 – A true witness delivereth souls: but a deceitful [witness] speaketh lies.

    Proverbs 14:8 – The wisdom of the prudent [is] to understand his way: but the folly of fools [is] deceit.

    Proverbs 12:17 – [He that] speaketh truth sheweth forth righteousness: but a false witness deceit.

    Proverbs 6:16-19 – These six [things] doth the LORD hate: yea, seven [are] an abomination unto him: (Read More…)

    Psalms 35:11 – False witnesses did rise up; they laid to my charge [things] that I knew not.

    Psalms 27:12 – Deliver me not over unto the will of mine enemies: for false witnesses are risen up against me, and such as breathe out cruelty.

    1 Kings 21:13 – And there came in two men, children of Belial, and sat before him: and the men of Belial witnessed against him, [even] against Naboth, in the presence of the people, saying, Naboth did blaspheme God and the king. Then they carried him forth out of the city, and stoned him with stones, that he died.

    Leviticus 19:16 – Thou shalt not go up and down [as] a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour: I [am] the LORD.

    Leviticus 19:12 – And ye shall not swear by my name falsely, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I [am] the LORD.

    Leviticus 19:11 – Ye shall not steal, neither deal falsely, neither lie one to another.

    Leviticus 6:3 – Or have found that which was lost, and lieth concerning it, and sweareth falsely; in any of all these that a man doeth, sinning therein:

    Exodus 23:1 – Thou shalt not raise a false report: put not thine hand with the wicked to be an unrighteous witness.

    Exodus 20:16 – Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

    Genesis 3:1 – Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

    Revelation 22:16 – I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star.

    Revelation 20:4 – And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    Revelation 20:2-5 – And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, (Read More…)

    Revelation 17:8 – The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

    Revelation 13:8 – And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    Revelation 13:1-18 – And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. (Read More…)

    Revelation 12:3 – And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

    Revelation 11:3 – And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

    Revelation 11:2 – But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty [and] two months.

    Revelation 9:5 – And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment [was] as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

    1 John 2:27 – But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

    1 John 1:7 – But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    1 Peter 2:9 – But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

    Titus 1:10-16 – For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: (Read More…)

    2 Timothy 2:15 – Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    1 Timothy 3:15 – But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

    1 Timothy 2:5 – For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

    1 Timothy 1:10 – For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

    1 Timothy 1:9 – Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

    Philippians 3:3-6 – For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. (Read More…)

    Galatians 3:24 – Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

    Galatians 3:10 – For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

    Galatians 1:6-9 – I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: (Read More…)

    2 Corinthians 11:4 – For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or [if] ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with [him].

    2 Corinthians 9:7 – Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, [so let him give]; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

    2 Corinthians 8:12 – For if there be first a willing mind, [it is] accepted according to that a man hath, [and] not according to that he hath not.

    2 Corinthians 8:1-5 – Moreover, brethren, we do you to wit of the grace of God bestowed on the churches of Macedonia; (Read More…)

    2 Corinthians 2:17 – For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

    1 Corinthians 15:52 – In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    1 Corinthians 14:33 – For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

    1 Corinthians 13:3 – And though I bestow all my goods to feed [the poor], and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

    Romans 14:1-23 – Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, [but] not to doubtful disputations. (Read More…)

    Romans 13:9 – For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    Romans 13:7 – Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute [is due]; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

    Romans 12:1 – I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service.

    Romans 11:35 – Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

    Romans 1:1 – Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called [to be] an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

    Acts 25:8 – While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all.

    Acts 20:29-31 – For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. (Read More…)

    Acts 17:11 – These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

    Acts 15:13 – And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men [and] brethren, hearken unto me:

    Acts 11:27-29 – And in these days came prophets from Jerusalem unto Antioch. (Read More…)

    You claim that “the Mormon hierarchy itself has had somewhat of a major awakening and – for the most part – has turned far away from it’s original worship of the Smith’s writings and life.”

    Please explain to me how they can do that. Mormonism rests upon the claim that a particular man named Joseph Smith had a particular set of revelations from a particular angel named Moroni. The entire system of Mormonism is established upon the belief that Joseph Smith had a revelation from heaven. Discredit that particular man who claimed he had this particular theology revealed to him by this particular angel, AND YOU DISCREDIT THE REVELATION. You cannot get rid of Joseph Smith and keep any Mormonism whatsoever. The whole thing goes out the door with the “prophet” who revealed it.

    You can claim what you want, but Joseph Smith IN FACT was a liar and an adulterer who had nothing whatsoever to do with God.

    Your false analogy between a conversation with a drug-addicted cousin and someone who goes door-to-door trying time after time to lead as many people with him to hell as he possibly can notwithstanding, I simply point out the fact that there is a time to lovingly rebuke such a cousin and there may very well be a time to get in his face about the terrible harm he is doing to his family and call him out for what he is. I know of loving parents who’ve been forced to take that step with their own kids and grand kids. It’s called “tough love.” You ought to learn about it.

    Mormonism is a lie from hell. That fact has always been obvious to everyone who knew and who loved the Word of God. The only barrier was the deluded, ignorant people who said to themselves, “Maybe Joseph Smith really had this revelation…”

    Well, we know what kind of man Joseph Smith really was now. And I rebuke you for rebuking me for pointing out the truth.

  8. Michael Eden Says:

    I have debated them every time and it is usually just a waste of time as they are most thoroughly brainwashed. I still enjoy the debate, though, and they usually leave thinking that I am some kind of nut. Only if they knew that what I was saying was actually true and what kind of predicament they are truly in.

    FMC,

    Well, I wouldn’t want to go so far as to say “You’re not a nut,” but you’re wanting to tell Mormons that they’re heading for destruction certainly isn’t “nutty.”

    To the extent that PolitiJim has a valid point, it is that we should treat individual Mormons we encounter in a loving manner unless the Spirit leads us to seriously rebuke them – which PolitiJim categorically dismisses as a possibility.

    There’s an illustration from the Old Testament that I find helpful from time to time:

    While the Israelites were camped at Acacia Grove, some of the men defiled themselves by having sexual relations with local Moabite women. These women invited them to attend sacrifices to their gods, so the Israelites feasted with them and worshiped the gods of Moab. In this way, Israel joined in the worship of Baal of Peor, causing the LORD’s anger to blaze against his people. The LORD issued the following command to Moses: “Seize all the ringleaders and execute them before the LORD in broad daylight, so his fierce anger will turn away from the people of Israel.” So Moses ordered Israel’s judges, “Each of you must put to death the men under your authority who have joined in worshiping Baal of Peor.” Just then one of the Israelite men brought a Midianite woman into his tent, right before the eyes of Moses and all the people, as everyone was weeping at the entrance of the Tabernacle. When Phinehas son of Eleazar and grandson of Aaron the priest saw this, he jumped up and left the assembly. He took a spear and rushed after the man into his tent. Phinehas thrust the spear all the way through the man’s body and into the woman’s stomach. So the plague against the Israelites was stopped, but not before 24,000 people had died. — Numbers 25:1-9

    Now, PolitiJim would have to say based on his rebuke of me that Moses and particularly Phinehas were terrible people who were harsh and unloving and didn’t reflect the love of Jesus. Me, I’m just going to point out that Politijim doesn’t care one fig about the 24,000 people who died or the many more who would have perished had Phinehas not acted as he did.

    I’ve got an obligation to protect the flock. And I take that obligation with deadly seriousness.

    But when you have a chance to get one-to-one with a Mormon, treat him or her with kindness and love and earnestly contend with that soul with the truth of the gospel according to Jude 3.

    There is a time and a place for everything. There’s a time to confront and rebuke, and there is a time to lovingly appeal.

    When Mormons (and we’ve got Jehovahs Witnesses, too) come to my door, if I have time, I always try to show them the error of their false beliefs and correct them with the truth of God’s Word.

  9. Michael Eden Says:

    dog walker,

    I suppose when I read this “extermination order” I can’t help but think of ISIS today. Or the Japanese and the Germans that we firebombed and killed by the hundreds of thousands.

    There truly are people who find that “hateful” and take the side of those poor, innocent Germans and Japanese and there are people today who side with ISIS. I mean, why are we bombing these decent folk???

    I’m not trying to argue that issuing a “kill on sight” “extermination order” was the best remedy to deal with Mormons then or now, but you need to understand that this came during an age where the people rightly understood that toxic religion was tantamount to being a mass murderer. Because a deceived people WILL perish by the millions due to their foolishness and to their depravity and due to the wrath of God. As I believe we’re beginning to see today due to the deceived spirit of our own age.

  10. Michael Eden Says:

    dog walker,

    Pertaining to your “I hate to admit it but I have been tempted by a curiosity towards Mormonism” comment re: how “those guys are so wholesome looking and kind.”

    There’s an interesting case that took place during a legal case in Salt Lake City involving the Mormon Church’s trying to get rid of some kind of sex business that had located there.

    Anyway, the Mormon Church was trying to shut this business down as a blight that would cause the moral turpitude of the city.

    The lawyer representing the sex business was an out-of-towner (because local lawyers were terrified to take the case lest their practices be boycotted and shut down). So he was staying in a hotel. And he’s looking out of the balcony of his high-rise hotel and seeing all these satellite dishes. And it occurred to him to wonder what all these Mormons were watching.

    So he subpoenaed the information. It turned out that they were watching porn. A LOT of porn, in fact. The number of Mormons who had specifically requested sex channels was HUGE.

    Which is to say, the city had already plunged into blight and moral turpitude, all on their own, without this business.

    Mormons, probably more than any other religious group, are entirely based on a façade. I want you to understand why this is so.

    Christianity is based entirely on grace through faith. Ephesians 2:8-9 teaches, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

    But Mormons teach a system of salvation by works. They EARN their way to heaven, baby. That’s why they work so hard visiting nursing homes and whatnot. They HAVE to in order to earn their way to heaven.

    I dare say it’s too bad that actual Christians don’t think a little more about really, really, seriously needing to actually get off their butts and serve. But they tend to stop at “saved by grace through faith” and conclude, “Well, I don’t have to do anything then, do I?” And so they DON’T do anything. When a true Christian’s attitude ought to be, “I was saved by grace through faith to lead a life of Christ-like righteousness and bear much fruit.”

    The bottom line is that Mormons do everything they can on the outside to appear righteous because that’s the only place they have any “righteousness” at all. Because true righteousness comes by one thing and one thing only: faith in the finished work of Jesus. See Romans chapter 10 for that.

    I suppose my own view is squarely between the “extermination order” of the bygone years and PolitiJim’s “you’re incredibly hateful for even rebuking them” view. We live in a free society and I thank God for that free society. And people have a right to believe and even to teach what they want. And I likewise have a right to refute those beliefs and teachings with the truth of the Word of God.

  11. PolitiJim (@politiJim) Says:

    Clearly you and I are communicating. I don’t see how you think I accused you of picking on individual Mormons any more than I see where you THINK I defended Joseph Smith.

    If you read clearly my first sentence (it’s not hard to miss) I say “I agree with everything you say here.”

    What part of that don’t you understand?

    I am addressing PRECISELY what you didn’t say. A) that individual Mormons might actually believe in Jesus and not understand the heresies of their cult and B) your tone is completely un-Christian.

    I am an avid reader of yours. Mostly because A) you are clearly super intelligent and B) you generally do more than the average research to justify your conclusions and conjecture. however – when I send your articles to my believing friends – almost without exception they comment how angry, sarcastic and bitter you seem to be. I’ve been there on my own blog. But I can’t deny whether someone else feels that way about me – whether that was my intention or not.

    My point to you is that your tone does nothing bring the love or Spirit of Christ to these people. And – although you give no substantiated contemporary evidence to the contrary – you ignore that they ARE making progress to come out of their deceptive thinking and practices.

    I’m sure we all wish that the Spirit of God would hit them, Jesus would reveal His truth and the errors would become self-evident. In fact, there are a number of Baptist, Charismatic, Catholic, Methodist, Lutheran and Protestant churches where I wish the same would happen.

    Someone who just wants to sit back and condemn people who are TRYING to seek Him (assuming that they truly are and are not perpetuating and even greater deception) not only will not accomplish your objective in getting them to “change their ways” – it is EXACTLY against what Jesus taught. WE ARE TALKING JESUS HERE not your Old Testament writings that Romans 7 tells you are NOT your guiding “law”.

    Luke 9:49 Now John answered and said, “Master, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow with us.” 50 But Jesus said to him, “Do not forbid him, for he who is not against us[c] is on our side.”

    Most Mormons are not out to stop you from your Baptist belief of living the 10 Commandments or your Charismatic casting out of demons. Most Mormons – including some in the Church hierarchy itself are ACTIVELY promoting Jesus.

    Where did Jesus focus His ministry on pointing out everyone’s sins? Find me any place that ACCEPT for the Pharisees and followers of the Old Testament law, where Jesus used the tone of condemnation you seem so eager to embrace. You can’t – because it isn’t there.

    Please do not distort what I said and actually try to LISTEN to what I’m saying. You – of course – do not have to agree, much less take my advice. But you are far to intelligent in my opinion to go flying off the handle shouting “fire” and “brimstone” to Mormons who are trying to sort this out – much less a a very committed and supportive reader of yours.

  12. PolitiJim (@politiJim) Says:

    Two last things – my last reply should say “aren’t” rather than “are.”

    Also – I’m not sure where you think I don’t leave open the possibility of Spirit-led rebuke. But let’s agree on what Biblical “rebuke” is. We are now no longer under the law. And Paul says that you are “accursed” if you are trying to do so to others. The Old Testament references of either law or prophets do not apply OUTSIDE of a prompting by the Holy Spirit. And NO WHERE is the Holy Spirit a condemning, judgmental, self-appointed soul castrater. GOD IS LOVE. Even rebuke – if it is godly – should be IN LOVE. (Wisdom from above is first of PURE, then peaceable, gentle, easy to be entreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy. )

    If you want to see the results of YOUR WAY versus God’s way PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE Watch the documentary “HOLY GHOST” by director Darren Wilson. I’ll even buy you the streaming video if you send me your email. In it a man who has been a street pastor in Utah for 15+ years screams outside the gates of their temple that they are going to hell, that they are demon possessed – basically everything you are doing. In all those years they have seen 3 people saved. Darren Wilson also films Christians who want to freely minister the LOVE of Christ (just like Jesus did) to Mormons on the street by praying for them. In just a couple of hours FOUR MORMONS ACCEPT CHRIST.

    No wonder the secular world hates Christians, when Christ himself was really only hated by the religious people. You want to do away with Mormon deception? Why don’t you pray for them? Why don’t you add to your article – in addition to pointing out the deception of Smith – how much Jesus loves them? How much more freedom they will have in truth and in walking (again as Romans 7 says) the promptings of the spirit rather than death of the law.

  13. Michael Eden Says:

    I don’t see how you think I accused you of picking on individual Mormons any more than I see where you THINK I defended Joseph Smith

    PolitiJim,

    Dude, I’m just going to quote your own words again:

    First, the utter disdain and contempt shown to Mormons isn’t quite reflecting the love of Jesus. I’m not talking about despicable men who use women or commit incest. The disdain is well put there. I’m talking about Mormons in general.

    You very clearly accuse me of going after “Mormons in general” and displaying “utter disdain and contempt to Mormons.”

    And no I DON’T, you liar. I say that last simply because I rebuked you for claiming I did something I point out I didn’t do, and now here you are trying to continue to insinuate that somehow I DID do something I didn’t do.

    Your project should either have been to defend your first comment to me and show me precisely where I display “utter disdain and contempt for Mormons in general” or admit you made a claim that wasn’t true. You do neither.

    Nor do I ever try to accuse you of having “defended Jospeh Smith.” That’s now another lie. What I very much DO claim you are doing is denouncing the truth-tellers for calling out the liars and exposing lies.

    You are simply biblically ignorant. Because Jesus violently drove out the money-changers in the Temple with a whip. Remember that? They weren’t Pharisees. And Jesus shouts at Peter, “Get behind me, Satan!” Peter was not a Pharisee, either. And you fail to understand that Mormons are closer to modern Pharisees” than just about any other group of people, for the record, in that they largely pervert Christianity by perverting it with distorted understanding of the Old Testament that the Pharisees loved so much. You further betray that ignorance when you tell me that anyone in the Mormon hierarchy is “are ACTIVELY promoting Jesus.” Because Paul says that there is more than one Jesus. And Mormons are very clearly preaching “another Jesus” (2 Corinthians 11:4) and in fact “a different gospel” (Gal 1:8) than the one that the apostles preached.

    Your implication by citing Luke 9:49 that Mormons are legitimate Christian brothers who are just a slightly different denomination from my own doing the work of Jesus is what is “completely un-Christian.” Unless Jesus IS in fact nothing more than “the spirit-brother of Luciferrather than the Creator who made the universe according to the Father’s plan (Eph 1:3-5) and saved us so that we are saved BY FAITH AND NOT BY OUR WORKS (Eph 2:8-9) as Mormonism clearly teaches.

    I am NOT talking about “individual Mormons might actually believe in Jesus and not understand the heresies of their cult.” I’m talking about the lie of Mormonism and the lying testimony of the founder upon which the lie of Mormonism is entirely based.

    What I AM talking about is the true Christian faith in contrast with the false Mormon system. If you think it’s hateful for me to point out historic facts about Joseph Smith and ask the question why people would believe the testimony from this man and accept his religious system based on his claim of a “revelation,” I guess that’s your right.

    That said, I don’t remember you being around here to hear my “tone” when I wrote this. I submit that if ANYBODY is displaying a bitter tone here toward a specific person, it is YOU toward me when you claim that I am acting in an “un-Christian manner” as I stand up for the truth of the gospel in contrast to the lie of Mormonism.

    You could have made the points that you are trying to make without personally attacking me. If you read my responses to other comments to this article, you will see that I myself agree with some of the points as you could have made them had YOU not had such a “tone.”

  14. Michael Eden Says:

    No wonder the secular world hates Christians, when Christ himself was really only hated by the religious people

    PolitiJim,

    Again, another demonstration of biblical ignorance.

    King Herod – who mocked Jesus while his men beat him – and Pontius Pilate – who washed his hands of Jesus – and the Jewish people – who shouted “Crucify Him!” – and the Roman centurions – who crucified Jesus – were not “religious people.”

    Jesus Himself said, “If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated Me first.” That’s John 15:18.

    I note here that Jesus says “THE WORLD” hated Him; in rather complete contradiction to your version.

    You are just plain WRONG about your assertion that “Christ himself was only hated by the religious people.”

    In this and in all other issues, I think I’ll take the Bible’s side rather than yours.

    What you do here is endemic to your entire approach in response to this article: you start by asserting something that is completely false. And then based on that false thing you draw conclusions that themselves are also false.

    It’s like trying to argue with a pretzel. I can argue with one loop but of course the thing will loop back in a completely different direction a moment later.

    Your equivocations here are just too much for me.

    You start out by stating, “I agree with everything you say here.” And never point out ANY of the real stuff that I say that you agree with. But it quickly becomes very clear that you don’t agree with a great deal of what I said, your words to the contrary.

    I dare say you are the very first person I’ve ever encountered who said, “I agree with everything you say here.” And then proceeded to completely disagree with dang near everything I said.

    But then actually has the chutzpah to say:

    If you read clearly my first sentence (it’s not hard to miss) I say “I agree with everything you say here.”

    What part of that don’t you understand?

    Because, I’m like, well, how about pretty much every word of every single one of your paragraphs where you actually do the very opposite of what you say you’re doing???

    You have on the one hand essentially said that you agree that Mormonism is a heresy. But almost immediately after acknowledging that you allude to Luke 9:49 to assert that Mormons are really just other Christians casting out demons and doing the work of Jesus just like an other Christian. And so what’s my beef with them? You tell me I’m “un-Christian” to say negative stuff about Mormonism. While you rather rabidly go after ME and say very negative stuff about me.

    You talk about the need to be uber-sensitive to people’s feelings if I want to get anywhere with them while your own words fly in the face of what you say I should do.

    The funny thing about the way you argue is that I’m now right no matter what: if I cave in to your “your tone is completely un-Christian” attack, it’s because the negative attacking style that you criticize me for employing is actually the way to go. So I’m right and you’re wrong. I guess that’s the problem with the pretzel; it can’t really be right because it keeps looping back to contradict itself until it’s just a mess that goes nowhere.

    Now, on the other hand – our real argument being over offending people with “harsh tones” – it may well be that there’s just no way to present the truth without being hurtful. For instance, on your view the truth is that I have “a completely un-Christian tone.” Which is very hurtful to me to hear you say, just as you say it’s very hurtful for Mormons to hear me point out unpleasant facts about Joseph Smith. And so in order to present the truth you have to offend people with a harsh tone. Which would frankly be my point and why Jesus actually said the world would hate us because it hated Him first: because we’re going to tell the truth and the world doesn’t want to hear the truth. So I’m still right and you’re still wrong. Because you criticize me for a tone that you prove yourself has to be taken for the truth to come out.

    So if I agree with you in spite of your harsh tone, it means my basic point is right: Let’s focus on factual content rather than “tones.” But if I disagree with you and the reason is your harsh tone, well, shoot, that would make me right, also – because there’s just no way to correct error without being harsh as you yourself demonstrated in your “completely un-Christian” harshness toward me.

    It’s actually kind of funny.

    But meanwhile, of course, I’m citing facts – and I haven’t seen a single point where you have tried to refute my facts – and you talk “tone.”

    And then you rather harshly tell me that “my tone is completely un-Christian.” [But you do it in such a loving, loving way, I’m certain you’ll tell me].

    Which is fine, apparently, as long as you don’t say it to a Mormon…

    Experts call this “hypocrisy.” Most of them agree that it’s a bad thing.

    My point is that I take my stand on the truth. There’s the truth and there are the lies that compete with the truth. You can take your stand on somebody’s “tone” all you want to. But you have little to do with the truth.

    Mormonism is a lie. It is based on the claims of “revelation” from a man who proved himself to be an adulterer and a criminal. Mormonism literally has denied history and reinvents history to “prove” itself, such as when they claim that Jesus came to America to preach the gospel to Indians and invented an entire civilization that never existed as “proof.” Mormonism has had so many self-refuting beliefs that it is beyond unreal, such as black people once having been deemed as having black skins because of their relation to the devil and to polygamy and to a gamut of other theological garbage.

    Those are just facts. People should know those facts so they can be saved from the danger of this cult.

    People should know those facts so that another Mormon never actually becomes the Republican nominee for the presidency. Because nobody should elect a president who believes the crap that Mormonism clearly teaches.

    Mormonism is a sick, warped theological perversion. And I care enough about people to want to save them from that system that leads straight to hell.

  15. PolitiJim (@politiJim) Says:

    In my opinion, all writing has the risk misinterpreting the REAL intent of the writer. If I have seemed harsh (at you being harsh) as you suggest I apologize. My natural personality in the past (being from the South Side of Chicago) was to cut people off at the knees and then address their points intellectually after they were about 2 feet shorter. God continues to give me grace to “renew my soul” and believe me – if you think I’m being caustic you would marvel at what I used to be. I am truly trying to discuss this A) knowing that you are a strong and good believer in Christ and B) you might tattle on me to Jesus if you get to heaven first.

    I’m asking you kindly, is it possible for you to have a discussion without calling another brother or sister in Christ “a liar”?

    I hope so. Despite the Bible illiteracy you claim I have, I humbly offer you this:

    2 Timothy 2:24 ESV
    And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil,

    I’m hoping you be “kind” enough to at least let me take one more crack at this.

    – I agree Mormonism was founded and perpetuating in deception.
    – I am pointing out that you completely ignore individual Mormons and even the current church that is changing. It seems your position is that CURRENT Mormon church is “sick, warped” etc and I agree that I wouldn’t suggest anyone continue in that church – but that are facts (which I’ve provided contrary to your assertions) that suggest otherwise.

    – I’ve given you direct testimony to evangelical leaders – including the PRESIDENT of perhaps the most recognized evangelical university in America who attests that their belief system is changing. (It seems that somehow you think this somehow condones their “church” which would be intellectually careless of you)
    – My final point is that your complete and unyielding attack that “Mormonism is only evil” will do absolutely nothing to make a dent in their transformation to the true the gospel. And if you think tone doesn’t matter I suggest perhaps you revisit a few scriptures yourself. (Prov 15:1 and Prov 25:15 come to mind). Even a wife is to win her husband with demonstrations of godliness and not “talk” even if she is right.

    Jesus didn’t say to stay in a town where you aren’t accepted and force your evangelism down their throat did he? No – he said to dust yourself and move on. You on the other hand seem to relish being combative and in fact state, “it may well be that there’s just no way to present the truth without being hurtful.”

    You also state that “My point is that I take my stand on the truth”

    Well, I call your TRUTH and raise you this:

    And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

    So you see Truth is trumped (according to the Bible) by LOVE. That does NOT mean you tolerate evil. But it does mean that no, you do not have to be “hurtful” or harsh, to share truth.

    Let me use just one scripture which you misused earlier. “Galatians 1:6-9 – I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel.”

    The entire LETTER is talking about NOT focusing on the practice of assuming righteousness comes from “being right” and “doing” or “not doing” good or bad things. It talks of the GOSPEL OF GRACE! What is that? It is the UNMERITED FAVOR OF GOD that comes through BELIEF/TRUST/ADHERENCE to the work of Christ on the cross and NOT the telling people what the “law” says.

    Where is the GRACE that you cite in your scripture reference ANYWHERE in your complaint against the Mormons?

    Calling people evil – especially those who are trying to come to the truth – doesn’t seem like GRACE to me. Is it possible to say to Mormons – hey, I know how hard it must be to learn that your Founder was a pervert. I had the same distress upon learning that Martin Luther was anti-Semite and that King David was a murder/adulterer. But the reason the works of Luther and David lived is because the Spirit of the Living God confirmed His message through very impure vessels with evidence that can be witnessed today.

    You ignored it in my first response but I say it again. Perhaps you are greater than the Apostle Paul – I don’t know. But even PAUL said “I didn’t come to you with speech and preaching of enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power” WHERE IS YOUR DEMONSTRATION OF THE SPIRIT AND POWER FOR THE MORMON?

    I’ve set two challenges before you that still have yet to address. The first is that give me ONE INCIDENT where Jesus rebuked ANYONE who was honestly looking for the truth (not trying to push their “law” down his throat) harshly as you are suggesting.

    My second challenge is for you to watch the documentary HOLY GHOST which is a wonderful ELIJAH test of what you seem to advocate versus what I advocate.

    Again – you can send me your email on the contact page of politijim.com and I will BUY you a streaming permission to watch it free of charge.

    Whether you decide to or not – I bless you with peace.

  16. Michael Eden Says:

    PolitiJim,

    You make yourelf the victim after demonizing me as “un-Christian” do you?

    You say, “I’m asking you kindly, is it possible for you to have a discussion without calling another brother or sister in Christ “a liar”?”

    Well, it’s just as possible as it is to have a discussion without calling another brother or sister in Christ “un-Christian.” Certainly it is not one iota more so.

    I can understand why you don’t like being called a liar just like I don’t like being called “un-Christian,” or “bitter” or “harsh.” But if you don’t like being called a liar, I submit that a good place to start is to NOT SAY THINGS ABOUT PEOPLE THAT ARE UNTRUE. And since you are fond of labeling people as “un-Christian,” allow me to point out that slandering people is decidedly that very label you like to use.

    Don’t you dare lie about me and then whine that I pointed out that you lied about me.

    I have now repeatedly pointed out that I did not do what you initially accuse me of doing:

    First, the utter disdain and contempt shown to Mormons isn’t quite reflecting the love of Jesus. I’m not talking about despicable men who use women or commit incest. The disdain is well put there. I’m talking about Mormons in general.

    I actually singled that quote out before and even bold-faced it before. I demanded that you show me where I did what you falsely claimed I had done. But nothing. With you, your assertion is more than enough evidence to convict.

    I have re-read my entire article and at absolutely no time do I do what you falsely claim I did AND CONTINUED TO CLAIM EVEN IN YOUR LAST COMMENT.

    The ONLY Mormon I show “disdain and contempt” for in my article is Joseph Smith. And I document at length why that “disdain and contempt” for Joseph Smith is fully warranted. I NOWHERE do what you slandered me as doing. I have repeatedly pointed that fact out. But you just pretend I didn’t expose your lie while you make yourself the victim about being called a liar.

    I’ve written about the condition that afflicts you: https://startthinkingright.wordpress.com/2012/01/26/of-liberalism-victimism-avoidance-projection-and-other-personality-disorders/

    “Victimism” in this context is when a liberal practices a particularly bizarre form of psychological jujitsu in order to make themselves the victim in an argument or debate. You see, in their warped little minds, if they can manage to make themselves the victim, they win. It doesn’t matter how strong your case is or how weak theirs is otherwise; in liberalism the victim always wins. Period. And look; they’re the victim!

    So, of course, if I say something mean – (regardless of anything vile they previously said to me) – they become the victim and therefore they win the debate. Because that’s the way their world works.

    If you’re not a liberal, you sure act just like one.

    I am quite within my rights to point out the fact that you lied about me. And that’s not the only time you claim I did something which I point out I never did. But I’ll move on.

    You also say:

    Despite the Bible illiteracy you claim I have, I offer you this:

    Well, PolitiJim, I didn’t “say” you had Bible illiteracy; I PROVED YOU HAD BIBLE ILLITERACY. In my last comment, I went into detail proving that your assertion about Scripture was simply patently false.

    You claimed that “Christ himself was really only hated by the religious people.” Which was an important part of your argument. I destroyed that with the truth.

    Do you try to refute my proof? Nope. Do you have the honesty to interact with my proofs in any way? Nope.

    There is absolutely no point whatsoever in having any kind of discussion or argument with someone who simply refuses to interact with you. Which is why I’m just done with you.

    Let me state again, that as you talk about how we’re always wrong if we’re harsh, etc, you yourself prove that you cannot keep the very standard that you try to impose upon me.

    As I pointed out from the outset, you first told me that “I agree with everything you say here.” But that very clearly wasn’t true – as all your comments have proven.

    Then you say to me, “But your omissions are glaring.” Okay, if you yourself were the sort of gracious person that you insist I be, you would have went about this very differently. You would have said something to the effect that you’d like to add that we should be gracious in our treatment of Mormons, etc. And I would have agreed and we would have all been happy and gracious.

    Instead, you personally demonized me. And you did so on a false premise.

    You give me an incredibly mealy and passive aggressive:

    If I have seemed harsh (at you being harsh) as you suggest I apologize.

    Even here, in where you pretend to apologize, you only “seem” harsh, whereas I of course AM harsh. This is called “patronizing nonsense,” for the record.

    It is a rather classic example of what is called a “non-apology apology“:

    A non-apology apology is a statement that has the form of an apology but does not express the expected contrition. It is common in both politics and public relations. It most commonly entails the speaker saying that he or she is sorry not for a behavior, statement or misdeed, but rather is sorry only because a person who has been aggrieved is requesting the apology, expressing a grievance, or is threatening some form of retribution or retaliation.

    An example of a non-apology apology would be saying “I’m sorry that you feel that way” to someone who has been offended by a statement. This apology does not admit that there was anything wrong with the remarks made, and additionally, it may be taken as insinuating that the person taking offense was excessively thin-skinned or irrational in taking offense at the remarks in the first place.

    These subjunctive PC “If I”-apologizes are so worthless. And I don’t “suggest” you “seemed harsh.” I point out the harsh things you said. They stand as facts. It is a FACT that you applied a lot of harsh labels at me.

    While passing yourself off as the victim and while passing yourself off as representing the “grace” that you very clearly don’t show yourself.

    But I’ll tell you what: “I have seemed” to accept your “apology.” And I’ll even “apologize” in the exact same spirit:

    If I have seemed harsh (at you being a liar) as you suggest I apologize.

    Boy, do I ever feel gracious now. Please accept my non-apology pseudo-apology.

    You cite 2 Timothy 2:24. And 2 Timothy 2:24 is true, of course.

    But do you remember that long, long list of passages I started out with in my first response to your only “seemingly” harsh comment? Yeah, they’re true, too.

    As I pointed out in one of my comments to this article, another passage says,

    “There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under the heavens:” — Ecclesiastes 3:1

    You see, PolitiJim, the Bible understands something you very clearly DON’T understand: there is a time for rebuke and harsh words and there is a time for its opposite.

    There very much IS a time for rebuking.

    You give me a couple of challenges. Notwithstanding just how horribly you’ve been in responding to MY challenges to you which you just ignore like water off a duck’s back. One is to see some movie. The other is this:

    I’ve set two challenges before you that still have yet to address. The first is that give me ONE INCIDENT where Jesus rebuked ANYONE who was honestly looking for the truth (not trying to push their “law” down his throat) harshly as you are suggesting.

    Well, I believe I HAVE responded to that, but let’s have another go at it:

    From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life. Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. “Never, Lord!” he said. “This shall never happen to you!” Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.” — Matthew 16:21-23

    That’s like the mother of all rebukes, dude. And Peter wasn’t trying to “push his law down Jesus’ throat.” He was a man who loved his Master and didn’t want Him to die. He was wrong in his belief that Jesus didn’t have to die, but I’ve never heard anyone claim that Peter was being dishonest. I fully meet your condition and refute you by your condition.

    Here’s another instance just a few chapters later:

    Jesus entered the temple courts and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves. “It is written,” he said to them, “‘My house will be called a house of prayer,’ but you are making it ‘a den of robbers.'” — Matthew 21:12-13

    And of course we know that Jesus literally physically beat them. Yep, a rebuke. Plus a beating. And they weren’t trying to push their law down anyone’s throat; they were just peddling their wares. Yes, they had participating in a corrupted system, but it wasn’t like they were being “dishonest” and lying to anyone.

    And let’s consider Jesus’ relationship with the crowds:

    But Jesus would not entrust himself to them, for he knew all people. — John 2:24

    This also serves to refute you for your previous false “biblical assertion” that only the “religious people” hated Jesus and NOT the world. Jesus knew that these very same people would end up shouting “Crucify Him!” (John 19:6).

    Jesus had to have told His disciples that He didn’t trust these people as far as He could throw them. Or how would they have known that’s how Jesus felt about the crowds???

    But let’s consider what John the Baptist said of those crowds of people who weren’t actively lying or pushing their law down anyone’s throat:

    John said to the crowds coming out to be baptized by him, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? — Luke 3:7

    “Brood of vipers.” Boy, that’s kind of harsh. And sounds very much like a “rebuke.” I mean, boy, I wonder what you would have said to me if I said that Mormons were all a brood of vipers?

    But it was just John the Baptist who said it, so I guess we can just dismiss him as an “un-Christian” “harsh” “bitter” man. Or at least you can, anyway.

    Now, having proven AGAIN that you are biblically ignorant, and that you begin with a false assertion and then proceed to come to false conclusions on the basis of your false premise, I also need to point out the fact that you’ve simply got no right whatsoever to so limit your criteria for Jesus’ denunciation and rebuke.

    You simply implicitly reveals biblical ignorance in the very grounds of his “show me Jesus doing it” criterion. First, he commits the identical error that militant homosexuals commit by demanding that we show Jesus condemning homosexuality (and since Jesus never explicitly condemns it, it must be okay, right? WRONG.). Just like PolitiJim is wrong when he demands the same stupid thing. In point of fact, in Jesus’ day and in Jesus’ culture, EVERYONE KNEW HOMOSEXUALITY WAS WICKED. Jesus didn’t HAVE to condemn it; it would have been like Jesus lecturing the people on the sky being blue. In the larger culture of Paul’s time, the Gentile world was a little more confused. So Paul had to restate what the Old Testament taught about homosexuality.

    Jesus said He came to fulfill the Old Testament, not to abolish it. So just as the lessons re: homosexuality still applied unless Jesus said, “Homosexuality is a good thing now” – which of course He didn’t – the same applies to the “harsh” denunciations that fill the pages of the Old Testament. Because you find that the prophets just RAILED at the wickedness of the people in Book after Book. And that’s all part of the Word of God. I cited quite a few of those condemnations of false teachers in my first response to PolitiJim.

    Secondly, in your demand that I had to show JESUS rebuking – rather than just “show me in the Bible” – PolitiJim reveals he clearly does not understand the Christian doctrine of inspiration. Those who DON’T understand it believe that the “red letter” passages of the Bible spoken by Jesus are “more inspired” than the rest of the Bible. But that is FALSE because the ENTIRE BIBLE IS THE WORD OF GOD. And you can’t have one verse being “more inspired” than another verse given the doctrine of the inspiration of Scripture. Divine inspiration is not a degreed property.

    Furthermore, PolitiJim, you have asserted that the Mormons and the Pharisees are somehow absolutely nothing whatsoever like one another. You are simply factually wrong.

    There is NO group of people today who are closer to the Pharisees than the Mormons. They are THE bastions of legalism in the religious world today:

    Robert E. Parsons, associate professor of ancient scripture at Brigham Young University recently answered the question, “What is the role of grace in LDS theology?” (Ensign, July 1989 p. 59-61). He asked, “Are we saved through Christ’s grace by merely confessing him as our Savior? Or are we saved through his grace after doing all we can — both in confessing his name and in keeping his commandments?” He then proceeds by answering his question. “Both reason and scripture loudly proclaim the latter….”

    In speaking of the Fall of Man via Adam, Parson explains, “Since we had no power or control over that transgression, God’s grace and mercy take care of the penalty – this is the unconditional aspect of salvation. It guarantees that we all will be resurrected.

    “However, God’s grace will not do for us what we can do for ourselves,” (Ibid).

    This same idea is echoed in a new book by Robert L. Millet, chairman of the Department of Ancient Scriptures at BYU. He writes, “As we have seen already, the grace of God is a necessary condition for salvation; there is no way, in time or in eternity, that man could produce the plan of salvation — create himself, fall, or redeem himself — for such is the work of the Gods. (Yes, he said, “GODS”).

    “Therefore, acting alone, the grace of Christ is not sufficient for salvation. The works of man — the ordinances of salvation, the deeds of service and acts of charity and mercy — are necessary for salvation…,” (By Grace Are We Saved: The necessity of God’s grace in addition to man’s good works, 1989 ed., p. 70; emphasis retained; parenthesis added).

    Not only is this the understanding of BYU professors, it is also the official stance of the Mormon Church as taught by their tenth prophet, Joseph Fielding Smith. Under the sub-heading “Misinterpretation of Texts,” Smith discussed Ephesians 2:8-10 in the following manner: “There are various opinions concerning the virtue and requirements of salvation. Misinterpretation of Paul’s words has led to much confusion and rejection of the full gospel plan.

    “Failure to comprehend the two-fold purpose of the atonement has caused many to believe that all that is essential for salvation is to confess the name of Jesus Christ.

    “Those who teach the doctrine of `faith alone’ are searching for an `easy road to heaven.’ … Someone has referred to them as Bible Christians – their religion is in the Bible and not very much in themselves,” (Religious Truths Defined, 1961 ed., p. 267). On this point, Smith is correct. Biblical Christians do put their faith in the teachings of the Bible and not in their own works.

    A few pages later, Smith plainly states, “Salvation or redemption from our own sins is not by free grace alone. It requires work.

    “Grace and works unite to bring salvation. We believe that through the grace of Jesus Christ we are saved. He performed for us those things which we could not do for ourselves, but there are certain requirements in the Gospel of Jesus Christ which we must obey for ourselves which are essential to salvation,” (Ibid, p. 270).

    So that there is no misunderstanding on the necessary part works have in the salvation process, the words of Lowell L. Bennion, former director of the LDS Institute of Religion, are cited.

    “Salvation is not a gift of God which comes to man through the decree of Deity or through the sacramental action of the Church. It is a gift of God which man must work diligently to achieve,” (The Religion of the Latter-day Saints, p. 160).

    This Mormon concept of salvation being a result of works is vastly different from the commonly held Christian understanding of Salvation as an unmerited, unearned gift of God’s grace. Realizing this difference exists, LDS apostle Bruce R. McConkie expounded on the latter’s origin.

    “Salvation by grace alone and without works as it is taught in large segments of Christendom today, is akin to what Lucifer proposed in preexistence — that he would save all mankind and one soul should not be lost.

    “As with the proposal of Lucifer in the preexistence to save all mankind, so with the doctrine of salvation by grace alone, without works, as it is taught in modern Christendom — both concepts are false. There is no salvation in either of them. They both come from the same source; they are not of God,” (What Think Ye of Salvation by Grace p. 49; cf. Millet, p. 73).

    Thus, according to Mormon authorities, salvation is by grace after man has worked to earn that grace. Also, the Christian concept of salvation by grace is, as stated by an LDS apostle, found to be originated by Lucifer himself.

    The Pharisees are clapping and cheering and saying, “YES!” to all of that. That was the very essence of their own theology that Jesus destroyed.

    You sit here and tell me I have no right to do what Jesus and the ENTIRE New Testament clearly does: denounce this lie and denounce the liars who come to your door with that lie.

    And you are just plain and simply WRONG.

    You YOURSELF prove in your OWN harshness that you cannot practice the very thing you claim I ought to practice.

    Frankly, what you do to me reminds me of Jesus talking about the Pharisees:

    “And He said, “Woe to you lawyers also! For you load people with burdens hard to bear, and you yourselves do not touch the burdens with one of your fingers.” — Luke 11:46

    Because YOU YOURSELF proved you can’t bear the “grace” load that you demand I carry.

    You are just flat-out WRONG. Your own treatment of me proves it.

    You say:

    Calling people evil – especially those who are trying to come to the truth – doesn’t seem like GRACE to me.

    Dude, number one, you are continuing to LIE about me. And you are a LIAR for doing it. If you cannot document where I say, “Mormons are evil,” you are a LIAR.

    The second thing is that the New Testament ALONE does the thing you condemn. In Philippians 3:2, for example, Paul condemns “evil workers”. In 2 Timothy 3:13 Paul refers to “evil men and imposters.” And these are “deceiving and being deceived,” which for the official record describes Mormons to a “T.” You are literally condemning the Word of God.

    Consider the first part of 2 Timothy 3 verses 1-9:

    1But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. 2For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, 4treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these. 6For among them are those who enter into households and captivate weak women weighed down with sins, led on by various impulses, 7always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men of depraved mind, rejected in regard to the faith. 9But they will not make further progress; for their folly will be obvious to all, just as Jannes’s and Jambres’s folly was also.

    There’s some “evil-callin'” going on there, dude. And if you read chapter 4, you can’t help but note that Paul calls individuals out BY NAME.

    I don’t doubt that doesn’t sound very “gracious” to you to. But it’s the Word of God. The Bible tells us what evil is and shows us what it looks like.

    There CLEARLY is a time for the sort of grace and sweetness you posture yourself as championing. But there’s a time to get in people’s face and say, “Get behind me, Satan!” There is a time to call out EVIL for what it is. You clearly don’t comprehend that.

    There are times when we should certainly be gracious to Mormons. Yes. Thank you for stating the blatantly obvious. But you proceed to assert that there is NEVER a time to be anything other than nice and never criticize or condemn or denounce or rebuke anyone who in your words is “honestly looking for the truth” when that is just plain nonsense.

    I mean, dude, that can apply to the ISIS guy who is sawing people’s damn HEADS off. You don’t know that those murderers don’t sincerely believe what they’re doing is right. This notion that the ISIS terrorist just horribly sawed some poor guy’s head off, but we can’t criticize him because he believes he’s “honestly looking for the truth” is not only ridiculous, it is IMMORAL. That would also apply to the freaking MANSON family. You may not be old enough to remember those Manson women in the courtroom: they were arrogant with the “righteousness” that came from believing they had done the right thing when they massacred Sharon Tate. http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01458/manson1_1458950c.jpg

    And Mormons aren’t even “honestly looking for the truth.” They have believed – past tense – a lie and they are committed to that lie. They are trying every day in every way to lead others into that lie. They are committed to the lie in a way that makes you wish that Christians could show as much commitment to the TRUTH. And somebody has to point out the error of their theology and show why it is just plain FALSE and WRONG and warn their future victims not to believe this garbage.

    Now I am done with you. I have given you numerous opportunities to set forth your views, and I have also given you numerous opportunities to own up to your errors and false charges. You’ve done plenty of the former and absolutely none of the latter. I have also now repeatedly demanded that you stop falsely claiming I did what I did not do.

  17. Beeker D. Says:

    Now if the ISLAMISTS would acknowledge the errors of Muhammeds ways!

  18. Michael Eden Says:

    Beeker D.,

    That would be nice for history and nice for humanity.

    There is a personal Satan. And the morally and rationally insane things human beings believe proves it.

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