Help, Did I Just Lose My Eternal Security Again???

Many Christians aren’t sure whether a saved person can be lost again or whether once saved they are eternally saved.  If a believer is unsettled on this crucial truth, doubts/fears/insecurity are bound to thrive. In place of truth, the devil continually presents wrong teachings, doubts and false reasonings. In the Garden of Eden he pulled those strings suggesting, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?” (Gen. 3:1).  And the distortion of the clear Word of God has been with us ever since.  The Holy Spirit calls for simple faith in the Word of God. Joy comes by accepting what God has told us plainly in His Word, rather than by allowing our confidence to be confused/stolen by a verse that is difficult to understand.  The first principle of interpreting Scripture is this: If there are passages that might seem to suggest Christian might lose their salvation, there are many others which with crystal clarity clearly state that we have genuine eternal security in Christ.  A second principle which follows is the always seek to read the Word of God from God’s perspective rather than bringing the fallen wisdom and flawed philosophies and reasonings of sinful man.  So when it comes to salvation, people who are reading the Bible from man’s point of view are coming to God’s Word with the view that salvation is up to us – when the Bible says salvation is up to God.  The Bible says that God predestined us, foreknew us, called us, chose us, elected us, appointed us.  Don’t dismiss the sovereign role of God in salvation.

The question is do we hold on to our salvation?  Or is it eternally held?  If our salvation depends on your “holding on,” then we should MORE than doubt our eternal security.  Because our salvation is up to us.  Rather, God’s Word says, “Being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ” (Phil. 1:6).  It asks, “Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?” (Gal. 3:3).  We are told that “Salvation comes from the LORD” (Jonah 2:9) rather than from us or anything we can do.  The New Living Translation for that verse is even clearer on this point: “For my salvation comes from the LORD alone.”  Ephesians 2:8-9 argues, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”  And we’re assured, “if we are faithless, He remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself” (2 Tim 2:13).  If you want to hold on to your salvation and make it all about you and what you can do for yourself, even by making it all about YOUR faith rather than GOD’S work, well, you go ahead.  As for me, I’m counting upon God to hold it for me.

Many want to claim that if we can choose to be saved, well, surely we can choose to be UNsaved.  But without bothering to venture into the debate between Armenians and Calvinists (I am actually a Molinist who upholds both human free will AND God’s absolute sovereignty), let me show how that is a false dilemma.  When a Christian freely confesses Jesus as Christ and Lord, that Christian freely makes Christ the Master of his/her life.  The last sentence in 1 Corinthians 6:19 reads, “You are not your own.”  And the first sentence of 1 Corinthians 6:20 says, “You were bought at a price.”  If you confessed Christ as Lord, you freely chose with your own free will to make yourself what the Bible calls a “bondslave” of Jesus Christ and of God (e.g. Eph 4:12; 1 Pet 2:16).  If you’ve made yourself God’s slave, you can’t decide you get to go free; because that decision is not UP to you, but to your Master.  And Jesus says He doesn’t let anyone out of His hand (John 10:28).  You used your free will to make yourself His, to give your soul to Him.  Which is to say you  ALREADY exercised your free will.  And it is not the kind of decision you can unmake/undecided any more than you can decide to commit suicide by jumping out of a high flying airplane without a parachute and then “undecided” to re-exercise your free will as you are hurtling toward the ground.  In that example, you exercised your free will in a one-time decision to choose death; if you confess Christ as Lord, you used your free will in a one-time decision to choose life.  And you can’t take that choice back.

If we can lose our salvation, there would have to be THREE classes of people: the saved, the unsaved, and the ones who used to be saved but lost their salvation.  There would be the (saved) sheep, the (unsaved) goats, and the sheep-goats.  And those who were elected/appointed/predestined/called to be SAVED by God (e.g. Acts 13:48; Rom 8:27-30; 9:11,16,23-24; Eph 1:4-6, etc.), were thus  subsequently RE-elected/RE-appointed/RE-destined/RE-called to be UNsaved by the God of salvation.  I don’t see that in God’s Word.  I don’t see God appointing someone to eternal life and then re-appointing that same individual to eternal death after He had appointed him/her to eternal life.  Colossians 1:13 says “For He has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son He loves”; it does NOT say that God does the opposite and transfers believers back into the dominion of darkness.  See John 5:24 (“whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life”); see 1 John 3:14 (“We know that we have passed from death to life”).  Show me ONE passage that clearly states that process EVER works the other direction.

Jesus provides a powerful assurance to His sheep: “My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow Me.  I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of My hand.  My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand.  I and the Father are one” (John 10:27-30).  First of all, just how can life be “eternal” if it can be changed to eternal death?   And second, if salvation comes from the LORD alone, and if no one is able to snatch us out of God’s hand, well, what’s the question again about losing your eternal salvation?

Those verses beg one question: how can you have “eternal life” and lose it?  Doesn’t “eternal life” by its very definition mean that you can never die and that you will live forever?  If I can have eternal life today and lose it tomorrow, I don’t have eternal life today and frankly can’t ever have it because “eternal life” becomes like a “square circle” and doesn’t even make any sense.  It is non sequitur to “lose your eternal life.”  If you have “eternal life” it can NEVER be lost or it wouldn’t be very “eternal.”

As sheep, our security is the responsibility of our Shepherd (1 Pet. 2:25) as “the Overseer/Guardian of our souls.”  The Bible repeatedly points out the fact that it is the NATURE of sheep to wander/stray (Isaiah 53:6).  And what does God DO when His sheep wander?  See Matt 18:12.  We “are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed” (1 Peter 1:5).

Are there passages that give us reason to believe that not everyone who says they’re Christians are actually Christians?  Yes.  Jesus taught the parable of the sower (Matt 13:3-8): there was seed that was sowed on the road, and the birds came and ate it up; there was seed that fell on rocky places and seemed to spring up, but having no true root, withered; there was seed sown among the thorns and again the lack of true roots choked out the shoots; and then there was the seed that was sown on good soil that sprang up with real roots and yielded a crop.  But what Jesus does NOT say is that the seed that is sown on good soil with real roots will perish!  Hebrews 6:4-7 is a favorite passage that people who teach “eternal INsecurity” rely upon.  But they are WRONG for TWO reasons: 1) the passage doesn’t merely suggest – on their own reading – that you can lose your salvation; because on that view it flat out states that “it is IMPOSSIBLE to renew them again to repentance” (vs 6).  So if you think you’ve lost your salvation, don’t bother trying to get it back again.  And 2) while there is suggestive language used “enlightened,” “tasted,” “partakers,” the word “saved” or “salvation” is NOT used of them and in fact is CONTRASTED to them in verse 9 (“But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation”).  I submit to you that this passage is describing an individual who has “tasted” but not “eaten” the Bread of Life.  They have been around it; they have been surrounded by it – but they simply never made that true decision for Jesus.  Franklin Graham was surrounded/immersed with Jesus; he saw all kind of miracles.  But he wasn’t saved until he made his own decision at age 22.  And many others so surrounded by faith never make that decision of faith for themselves.  And so they end up having “fallen away” the same way that the seed in Jesus’ parable lacking the true root ends up dying.

[For the record, many exegetes believe Hebrews 6 refers to Jews who had professed faith in Christ, but when persecution against Christians came, forsook Christ and returned to their Judaism and began offering animal sacrifices again – tantamount to profaning the blood of Christ (Heb 10:2-3)].

I think 1 John 2:19 sums it up best: “They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.”  There are pseudo-Christians to whom Jesus will say, “I never knew you” (Matt. 7:21-23).  The point here is that they were NEVER known; that is, they were never saved even if they appeared from the human perspective to be saved.  Jesus is most certainly NOT saying, “I used to know you, but you lost your salvation and now I don’t know you any more.”  He’s saying He NEVER knew them at all.  By contrast, Jesus says “I know My sheep” (John 10:27).  And Jesus says that His sheep will “never perish but have eternal life.” (John 10:28).  How can eternal life be eternal if it can be lost, particularly when Jesus said they will never perish?  If they will never perish, then they obviously can’t lose their salvation.  Also, Paul says that nothing will be able to separate us from the love of God (Rom. 8:38-39).  Read the Bible from The Author’s Point of view; you can’t consider the divine perspective and doubt that salvation is eternal and secure.

In terms of eternal life truly being eternal and salvation truly being of the LORD, I love this passage which provides a powerful guarantee that God will keep them despite their tendency to sin/stray: “But Zion said, ‘The LORD has forsaken me, the Lord has forgotten me.’  Can a mother forget the baby at her breast and have no compassion on the child she has borne? Though she may forget, I will not forget you!  See, I have engraved you on the palms of my hands; your walls are ever before me” (Isaiah 49:14-16).  And Christians have a pair of nail-scarred hands – with those nails being driven into His hands WHILE WE WERE YET SINNERS (Rom 5:8) AND ENEMIES OF GOD (Rom 5:10) – that guarantee us that our salvation is secure as long as Jesus bears the nail-engraved scars on His hands (Luke 24:39; John 20:27; Rev 5:6).  We are saved as long as Christ is alive, because Heb 7:25 states: “Therefore He is able to save completely those who come to God through Him, because He always lives to intercede for them.”

Are there passages that suggest to us that we if we are living just like the world, that we might still BE of the world?  Yes.  People want to say if you deny Christ, you can lose your salvation, for example.  But, for all of Peter’s denials of Jesus, Jesus didn’t say to Him, “You lost your salvation.”  Jesus restored Peter.  And as to my relationship, having been born again and indwelt by the Holy Spirit (Eph. 1:13), I am a child of God (Rom 8:16), I have eternal life (John 3:16), I am “in Christ” and a member of His body (1 Cor. 12:13). I am no longer in Adam, but a new creature in Christ (2 Cor. 5:17).  And so are YOU if you EVER truly knew Jesus.

Some of the passages that emphasize eternal security for believers:

  • John 6:39: “And this is the will of Him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those He has given Me, but raise them up at the last day.”
  • John 6:40: “For My Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
  • 2 Tim. 1:12: “…I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to him until that day.”
  • Rom 5:10: “For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to Him through the death of His Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through His life!”
  • Jer 21:23: …“I have loved you with an everlasting love…”
  • Rom 8:30: “And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.”
  • 2 Tim 1:9: “He has saved us and called us to a holy life–not because of anything we have done but because of His own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time.”
  • John 1:12-13: “Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God — children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.”
  • 1 John 3:2: “Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.”
  • John 3:16: “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.”
  • 2 Cor 5:17: “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!”
  • Colossians 3:3: “For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.”

If you are what is commonly described as “a backslidden Christian,” there is a high price that you will pay in this life until you are truly right with God.  You will suffer hardships in this life that you may not have suffered and you will miss out on rewards in heaven that you could have received while you were backslidden.  But you will NOT pay the ultimate penalty of hell.  Because when you confessed Christ as your Savior and Lord, He took ALL of your sins upon Himself once for all and for all time.  Let me try to explain in my own story.

My testimony: I became a Christian at age 15 on September 25, 1979 at Forest Home, when I went with my high school youth group.  I’d grown up in church, but had never truly experienced God (He was an old man with a big white beard in a bathrobe who saw everything I did – and disapproved) or Jesus (He was a wimpy guy carrying around a wimpy sheep) as something I wanted in my life.  At Forest Home, I first encountered Jesus as someone powerful who I truly wanted to follow.  I prayed to open my heart to Christ that day.

I came home changed.  My two best friends ultimately became Christians because of my transformation.  One is a Wycliffe missionary and the other became a pastor.

I entered the military.  But I ended up like too many young men end up today, wounded and  injured.  And the experience broke me both in body and in faith.  I simply could not understand why God had allowed me to get hurt.  And when I cried out to God, He did not seem to come to my rescue.  I came out of the Army bitter and questioning.  What good is God?  Is He even real?  And I lived for a number of years like a pagan.

Because I truly had been saved, I knew deep down that I wasn’t living rightly.  The backslidden Christian is the most miserable creature on earth, because on the one hand he/she doesn’t have the power to live a joyful and triumphant life pleasing to God and on the other hand as one who has the Holy Spirit within he/she can’t take true pleasure in sin the way unbelievers can.  You can sin, but there is a nagging sense that you are doing wrong.  In my heart, I knew where I needed to be.  I claimed to doubt God, but whenever I was in a tight spot, I prayed.  More than once, I had the realization that God would not let me die like this.

That said, I wasn’t going to church and I sure wasn’t living as a Christian.

I knew already in my heart that if there was no God, then there was no morality.  As Dostoevsky put it, “If God does not exist, everything is permitted.” And that if Mother Teresa and Adolf Hitler had the same end, morality is for fools and everyone should be as wicked and selfish as the slogan “Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die” entails.  But I knew deep-down that wasn’t true.  I knew right from wrong because the Holy Spirit lived in me.  And it was because the Holy Spirit lived inside me that the entire time I was rebelling against God, I was miserable.  I couldn’t enjoy the immorality that the world could wallow in.  Deep down I always knew that I was on the wrong path.  At the same time, I couldn’t enjoy my experience with God because I constantly knew that I was not pleasing Him.  I was stuck in the middle of the road in a deep rut.

It took years for me to reach the end of myself and finally come to the point where my resistance to God had softened such that I could miss the relationship that I had once truly had.  But I had to know for sure that my faith was in something/Someone REAL.  I began to search.

I first considered evolution, because if evolution was true there was no need for God and frankly no point IN God.  I read Richard Dawkins’ Blind Watchmaker and was actually more convinced of the reality of God when I put it down than I’d been when I’d started reading it.  I was appalled by the foolish reasoning and by the trivial dismissals of arguments that deserved profound exploration.  I read another book called Darwin’s Enigma by Luther Sunderland and was amazed at how bad the arguments for evolution truly are even according to many leading evolutionists.  But it took my examination of the historicity of the Resurrection and the marvel of prophecy to make me realize: it really happened.  On January 30, 1997, I prayed a prayer of re-dedication.  And I had an experience of a Presence just barely within my peripheral vision.  The passage, “And you will hear a voice behind you…” immediately flooded into my mind, and I wept like a baby as I realized that I had turned my back on Jesus, but that He had NEVER turned His back on me.

Did I lose my salvation and find it again?  No.  Like Peter, I had been sifted like wheat.  And I had folded like a cheap suit.  But like Jesus said, I was in His hand, and He wasn’t going to let go of me.  No matter how lost I felt, Jesus knew exactly where I was every second of every day.  And He never gave up on me, never quit working in my mind and in my heart.  Because as God says in His Word, “I will never leave you or forsake you” (Heb 13:5).  And He won’t.  That is a promise from God.

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14 Responses to “Help, Did I Just Lose My Eternal Security Again???”

  1. HL Says:

    Beautiful testimony, Michael! Jesus is so faithful and wonderful. Please keep our wayward daughter in your prayers.

  2. dog walker Says:

    Interesting article. I will probably read it a couple of more times.

  3. futuret Says:

    https://consciousshift2012.wordpress.com/2015/05/04/guillotines-box-car-shackles-and-the-dolce-base/

  4. Michael Eden Says:

    dog walker,

    That’s at least once more time than I would ever dare to hope for.

    The thing about key doctrines like “eternal security for believers” is really part of the struggle to interpret the Bible: if you make it about YOU (e.g., whether I am saved is up entirely to me because it’s my decision and if it is my decision to be saved, then how would it not also be my decision to change my mind/heart and NOT be saved?), you view the Bible as “man’s word about God.” WE’RE the subject and WE’RE the ones who decide everything, and God is just helplessly sitting there hoping we choose well. If you rather understand the Bible is GOD’S Word to man, and HE is the Primary Mover and WE are the things that are moved by Him, well, the Bible just becomes a completely different Book and its interpretation is nearly always self-evident. The Bible REPEATEDLY says we are predestined, called, foreknown, appointed, etc., and that means God is the One who chose US first. We have a role in participating in that decision, but it is CLEARLY NOT a decision that is merely just up to us. And even on the assumption that we are the choosers, it is simply rather obvious that there are many decisions that we can make but NOT “unmake.” Many choices have consequences, and your decision about eternal life has ETERNAL consequences.

    And again, someone smarter than me is going to have to patiently explain to me how I can have eternal life – which is CLEARLY and REPEATEDLY presented in the Bible – one day, such that I can never die. And then lose my eternal life and die the next day, and ever have actually had something called “eternal life” when I clearly don’t have it now according to some. Eternal life means according to Jesus I can’t perish in several passages, but just read the most famous one in John 3:16; perishing means I don’t have eternal life. Ergo sum if I can lose my eternal life I rather clearly never had eternal life to begin with.

    But again, if you make it about YOU, and about YOUR choices, then you just started out from the wrong foundation and you will NEVER understand God’s ways. We change our minds, but God NEVER changes His mind:

    God is not a man, so he does not lie. He is not human, so he does not change his mind. Has he ever spoken and failed to act? Has he ever promised and not carried it through? — Numbers 23:19.

    He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a human being, that he should change his mind.” — 1 Samuel 15:29

    but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him: “The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind: ‘You are a priest forever.'” — Hebrews 7:21

    for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. — Romans 11:29

    Those who want to make human will the ultimate arbiter of all things can change their minds and lose what I simply state they never had: eternal life. They are in the “It’s all about ME” club. Those who put their trust in God trust a God who does not change, does NOT change His mind, and holds us in His hand forever. They are in the “It’s all about CHRIST” club. And that’s the crowd I want to be with.

  5. Michael Eden Says:

    futuret,

    Well, Obama is no different than the godless secular humanists who gave us the French Revolution, so why not have a French Revolution Reign of Terror? It actually makes perfect sense…

  6. Michael Eden Says:

    HL,

    Thank you again for your encouragement. I am just about to get up and walk around a little and I shall say a prayer about your daughter.

    Remember, if you ever taught her about Jesus, He has her in His hand (John 10:27-30). And if you raised her up in the way that she should go, she will ultimately not depart (Proverbs 22:6).

  7. Michael Eden Says:

    dog walker,

    After I responded to your comment I had another related thought occur to me: the same warped and deeply-flawed myopic perspective that people bring to the Bible when they say you are responsible for your salvation and can therefore lose it and God is powerless to help you is the identical perspective of liberalism.

    Government-as-God. I’ve said it over and over. The problem is that their “god” isn’t very great or very good. He’s a corrupt, broken, dysfunctional “god.” It’s like the jihadist terrorist shooter at the Texas free speech event with the FBI saying that even though he was in their system, in their box, they couldn’t track him “because there are so many like him” that the agency is completely overwhelmed. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/06/world/middleeast/isis-texas-muhammad-cartoons.html?_r=1

    God just can’t keep up with all the evil and so how can He chase His flock around looking for struggling Christians when the REAL God – human government – can’t even keep up with violent jihadist terrorists who advertise what they are about to do all over Facebook and Twitter accounts???

    And God IS a man, that He should change for Obama, for liberals, for Democrats. God LOVES abortion now. God LOVES homosexual sodomy now. I mean, He realizes He was wrong, that HE was no different from some intolerant right-wing bigoted Christian. And God is now on the side of goodness, on the side of liberals, having repented of His sin. God changes. God is constantly changing. What was wrong yesterday is right now, and to stand for what God said yesterday was wrong is wrong.

    So of COURSE you can lose your salvation with their God.

    If you’re man-centered, and have your anthropocentric view of the universe, then you start down a path that tends to funnel you in one direction. Because most anthropocentrics want to have man in charge, rather than God by definition.

  8. futuret Says:

    http://metro.co.uk/2014/05/29/bilderberg-copenhagen-2014-full-list-of-official-attendees-4744401/

  9. Evan Says:

    Your citation of Jn 10:27-30 is taken out of context. Notice that verses 28-29 are predicated on v.27. Eternal life and not being snatched out of the father’s hand are only promised to the sheep who “listen” and “follow” the shepherd. No such assurance is given to the sheep who do not listen and follow; those who remain disobedient.

  10. Michael Eden Says:

    Evan,

    I suppose if you are determined to make your “salvation” all about YOU and WHAT YOU DO rather than about God and what He does, you’ll always find a way to read it into every verse no matter how clear it ought to be.

    Since you feel justified in taking me back to verse 27 to explain verses 28-29, I am just as justified to take you back to verse 26 to explain verse 27. Jesus said, “But you do not believe, because…” why? Because you don’t listen or don’t follow? No. That is completely NOT what Jesus says. Rather, you do not believe because you are not of Jesus’ sheep. If, however, you truly ARE one of Jesus’ sheep, you ultimately WILL listen and follow. In your perversion of the Word of God, you make it all about YOUR listening and following. It’s all about you and so you should be really pleased with yourself. But Jesus is pretty darn clear that it’s about being His sheep that results in eternal life rather than the fancy tricks the sheep can do.

    Your words completely miss Jesus’ point made clear in verse 26: it is NOT about what you do (listen and follow); it is about what you ARE: Jesus’ sheep. To put this in terms of causality, any “listening” and “following” is an EFFECT, rather than a cause.

    You just won’t get my primary point, which is why you steadfastly ignore it: Jesus gives ETERNAL LIFE to His sheep. If you have “eternal life,” just how is it that you claim you can lose it, but it was ever “eternal”??? If you can lose your “eternal life,” by the very meaning of the term, it was NEVER eternal to begin with. To use a different example, if I have “eternal beauty,” HOW CAN I EVER BECOME UGLY??? If I am promised “eternal wealth,” how on earth can I ever be poor and the person who made me that promise of “eternal wealth” not be a liar? You can’t lose something that is yours “eternally.” You make God a liar. Or at least an “Indian Giver.” Because He gives you eternal life which by definition you can never lose and then snatches it away from you because you violated clause 32d of page 467 of your salvation agreement contract.

    Fortunately for me, my salvation is all about God and His righteousness in my place, rather than about my righteousness in God’s place. And that is why I have true eternal life and I can never lose it no matter what: because My Lord paid the price for me in my place. And you go ahead in your own human power and your own human will trying to “listen” and “follow” based on yourself – and you will never do either one.

  11. Evan Says:

    Again, I find your explanation to be lacking and falls short based on the context. One must ask who is John referring to in v.26? Obviously in the passage he is responding to the Jews who are asking if he is the Christ in v.24. In v.26 Jesus clearly states that they (the Jews) are not of My sheep because they do not believe. In v.27 Jesus then employs the device of contrast to distinguish between the Jews and those who believe and belong to him – those who are listening and following. Listening and following are characteristic of those who are his sheep. However “listening” and “following” in the Greek are present tense verbs, indicative mood and as such, describe genuine believers who continue to listen and follow and are thus promised eternal life. Conversely, should a believer cease to listen/follow and instead becomes disobedient then eternal life can no longer be assured of.

    Your argument regarding eternal life is founded upon the false notion that eternal life is unconditional and as such can never be taken away or reversed. The scriptures say no such thing as eternal life is based upon belief and obedience. In persevering, one must continue to believe as well as continue to obey. In Jn 3:16 pisteuon is a present tense verb indicating the necessity of believing, continuing in belief; rather than just a one-time moment of belief. Likewise In Heb 5:9 – “And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who OBEY (hypakouousin) him.” Note that this verse does not say believe; it says obey. ” Obey” is also a present tense verb indicating that eternal life is only given to those believers who continue in obedience which happens to be consistent with what I wrote regarding Jn 10:27-28 as Scripture cannot contradict itself.
    The fact that life is “eternal” does not prove we cannot lose it. “Eternal” is an adjective that simply describes the nature of this life and has nothing to do with whether it can or cannot be lost so your point is moot.

  12. futuret Says:

    ACCURATELY STATED, AS WE APPROACH THE VERY LAST OF DAYS, WE SHOULD ALL STRIVE TO UNITE OUR GOALS AND PURPOSE OF SOULS TO THE KINGDOM OF YAHVEH(GOD). WE SHOULD ALSO TAKE NOTE IN THAT CHRIST HAS SAID TO PARA PHRASE, MY KINGDOM IS NOT OF THIS WORLD. THAT MEANS FOR A PRIME EXAMPLE, PATRIOTISM SHALL NO LONGER EXIST, BUT AN ETERNITY WITH HIM. NO MORE FLAG WAVING, EVIL, CORRUPTION, CORPORATIONS, ETC…; HIS KINGDOM IS NOT OF THIS WORLD.

  13. futuret Says:

    ONLY JEWS WHO ACCEPT CHRIST ARE OF HIS SHEEP. WE SHALL EVENTUALLY SEE, AS THE MARK OF THE BEAST COMES MORE PREVALENT INTO FOCUS, THAT THOSE OF US WHO BELONG TO CHRIST, SHALL BE SEPARATED FROM THOSE THAT BELONG TO satan; THIS INCLUDES EVERY RACE, NATIONALITY, AND CREED. AT THIS PERIOD OF HUMAN HISTORY, ABOUT TO COME TO AN END; THERE SHALL BE NO POLITICAL PARTIES, ETC…ONLY THOSE OF US FALLING INTO EITHER OF THESE GROUPS. NO ONE, BUT NO ONE COMES TO THE HEAVENLY FATHER, BUT THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY, AND THAT IS THROUGH OUR LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST.

  14. Michael Eden Says:

    The fact that life is “eternal” does not prove we cannot lose it. “Eternal” is an adjective that simply describes the nature of this life and has nothing to do with whether it can or cannot be lost so your point is moot.

    Evan,

    There’s a movie I remember enjoying called “The Princess Bride.” And when it comes to your understanding of the word “eternal,” there’s a line of dialogue that you ought to be the poster boy for:

    You keep using that word. I don’t think that word means what you think it means.”

    That guy kept using – and yes misusing – the word “inconceivable.” It’s rather obvious that “eternity” is “inconceivable” to you.

    More than right back atcha with your “I find your explanation to be lacking and falls short based on the context,” only with the added caveat THAT YOU ARE TRYING TO EXPLAIN AWAY THE CONTEXT RIGHT NOW. The self-righteous Pharisee actually has a great deal in common with your OWN view – given that you are all about works such as your works of listening and following rather than about being a sheep and respecting the words of Jesus when He said, “You did not choose me, but I chose you..” (John 15:16). God is sovereign and those He saves is up to Him and is His choice and NOT yours, Evan. In John 10, Jesus doesn’t tell the Pharisees who like you make salvation all about themselves rather than about God that their problem isn’t that they don’t listen and follow: He tells them that their problem is that they aren’t His Sheep. You are right – just as I previously explained – that “listening and following” are CHARACTERISTICS of being Jesus’ sheep. It is NOT what saves you!!! It is as I said an EFFECT rather than a cause. So parse all the verbs you want: it doesn’t matter. You even agreed with what I said. If Jesus chose us rather than we choosing Him, how is it that Jesus so screwed up that He chose wrong and that the people He chose for salvation ended up in hell? You have a purely man-centered view where MAN is on the throne because it’s all up to US rather than God. And it’s not.

    Your main point in your second paragraph is so idiotic I’m just plain done with you. You are actually trying to tell me that “eternal life” has nothing to do with duration of life. And your literal argument is that if the Bible doesn’t say something that is on its face laughably obvious, then what is laughably obvious must not be true. That if the Bible doesn’t specifically and clearly state that there’s something called “gravity” that therefore you must be correct in assuming that things fall up into the sky rather than down onto the earth. I mean dang, dude: I looked up “eternal” in my giant Webster’s Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary and the VERY FIRST DEFINITION is “lasting forever.” The whole first entry reads, “1. lasting forever; without beginning or end; always existing (opposed to temporal): eternal life.” Note that Webster’s specifically uses “eternal life” as an EXAMPLE of something that “lasts forever.” So I went to the online Oxford dictionary and again, here’s the very first definition of “eternal”: “lasting or existing forever.” Now, you might complain that this is English and the word is Greek, so look it up in the Greek: Strongs #166 (aionios): “perpetual, eternal, for ever, everlasting.” Case closed. “Eternal” means “eternal.”

    And if “eternal” means “everlasting” or “perpetual” or “forever” or “lasting or existing forever” it can’t be lost. Because if it COULD be lost then it certainly and clearly didn’t “last or exist forever” did it??? You are literally denying something that is simply self-referentially obvious.

    If as you assert the Bible clearly teaches that you can lose what all logic and common sense says can’t be lost (“forever clearly doesn’t actually MEAN “forever”), then it is YOUR job to show me all the passages that teach that eternal life is something that actually really isn’t “eternal” after all. That yes, the Bible actually teaches that you can lose what common sense tells us can’t be lost.

    So what this means is that there’s what you “know,” and then there’s what anybody who actually has a damn clue what the word “eternal” means knows. But you seem to be that sort that just wants to say truth is false. And you have to do that because the moment you grant what is self-referentially obvious about the word “eternal” your entire works-based theological system goes kaput and so all that is left for you to do is deny the obvious.

    You can go on about verb tenses until you head turns blue and explodes, it doesn’t change the obvious. It is a demonstration of what George Orwell said about the fact that the biggest fools on earth are “intellectuals.” Orwell said that “There are some ideas that are so absurd that only an intellectual [defined here as a guy capable of parsing Greek verbs who otherwise has no freaking clue about common sense] could believe them,” because no ordinary man was capable of being such a fool. That’s where you’re at here with your of “eternal” as clearly NOT meaning, “lasting forever.” And if “eternal” DOES mean “lasting forever” that you are so wrong you ought to be institutionalized or something.

    Let me ask you a question: In the same Gospel of John we’re arguing over, was Peter “listening and following” when it came to denying Jesus three times??? I’d say decidedly not, but you probably won’t given your tendency to deny the obvious. Again in Galatians in 2:11ff where Peter quit eating with Gentile Christians and starting only dining with Jews, was Peter “listening and following”??? Because oh, oh, on your interpretation the guy whose always at the pearly gates turns out to be rotting in hell because he failed to “listen and follow.” And as I pointed out and you ignored, if you CAN lose your salvation, YOU CAN’T WIN IT BACK AGAIN according to Hebrews 6:4-6 which concludes, “… it is impossible to renew them again to repentance.” Please read those words again, ye who believe people can lose their salvation: “it is impossible to renew them again to repentance.” Thanks for playing, kids, but the game is OVER. Please go burn in hell forever now.

    If you can lose your salvation, you can’t get it back. And only a FOOL would stand here and deny the obvious – the crystal clear meaning of the word “eternal” – and agitate for such a godawful and horrifying conclusion.

    But that said, you are flat wrong when you falsely assert that the Bible never teaches “that eternal life is unconditional and as such can never be taken away or reversed.” And frankly the reason I’m going to block you is that you have the irritating habit of completely ignoring my argument and my proof for my argument and then denying the evidence that I already presented exists. I gave MULTIPLE VERSES that testified to the fact that “eternal life… can never be taken away or reversed.” At least one of them that I specifically recall mentioning is John 5:24 which reads:

    “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”

    Now, this is a time when your verb tenses that you so like to cite actually matters: when you have eternal life, YOU DO NOT COME INTO JUDGMENT, BUT YOU HAVE PASSED OUT DEATH INTO LIFE.

    Now there’s a nice indicative perfect tense verb – and “perfect” means a completed action the result of which remains in the present. When you have eternal life, you have passed – done, finished, not a problem for you anymore or ever again – from death into life. Believers have already passed out of the state of death and have come into the state of eternal life – which has the present and future implication of “lasting or existing forever.” Because THAT’S WHAT ETERNAL LIFE MEANS and THAT IS WHAT THE VERB TENSES IN THIS PASSAGE CLEARLY MEAN. As anybody with any common sense understands.

    So you’re the one who can put “moot” in your pipe and smoke it.

    As I pointed out in my article, there is not a single passage in Scripture that in any way, shape or form indicates that you can go from being saved, to being lost, to being saved again. You believe a lie. And in fact, if you want to argue that the Bible teaches you can lose your salvation, IT TEACHES THAT YOU CAN’T EVER GET IT BACK. SO DON’T BOTHER TO TRY.

    Now please go away and annoy somebody else with your trivial understanding of verb tenses. The only thing that is worse than somebody who is completely ignorant is somebody who pretends to understand when in reality he or she is completely ignorant.

    Salvation is a gift from God. Eternal life is a gift of God. And God is NOT an “Indian Giver.”

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