The media that demonized peaceful tea parties and focused on liberal plants seemed to somehow miss this Latino protester:
“Give Us Free Health Care.”
“Give Us Free Jobs.”
“Give Us Free House[s].”
“Give Us Free Food.”
“No Taxes.”
“You OWE Us America!”
“We will Shoot More Police In Arizona Until We Get Free!”
Kind of makes your jaw drop, but at least he’s honest. It’s exactly what this crowd wants; they’re just mostly too smart to admit it.
The left tried to organize bogus plants to demonize the tea party movement. That’s just the kind of hostile-to-truth demagogic vermin they are. And tea party protesters made sure to point out the plants bearing irrational and hateful signs.
Nobody at the Pro-Illegal Immigration rallies seemed to feel the need to distance themselves from this quivering pile of slime, though. He’s the real deal.
What we have is an accurate and honest statement of anti-Arizona law values, in a single nutjob I mean nutshell.
But that’s hardly the only blatantly obvious example of open-borders pro-illegal immigration Latino protest. Check out this video of a Latino high school teacher who was a featured speaker at a protest at UCLA:
Quote:
“We are revolutionary Mexican organization here. We understand that this is not just about Mexico. It’s about a global struggle against imperialism and capitalism… At the forefront of this revolutionary movement is La Raza. We will no longer fall for these lies called borders.”
“La Raza” means “The Race.” As in the REAL racists in the Arizona law situation. You can go ahead and support this racist communist clown who wants to bring the greatest nation in the history of the planet down to ruin. Or you can stand with the people of Arizona who are beyond fed up with this crap.
Let’s not forget to give Barack Obama honorable mention in all of this garbage. Him and his Marxist, racist, anti-American, “God-damn-America!” preacher Jeremiah Wright were at the forefront of it.
Update, May 15: I corrected an error (that Ron Gochez is a Santee High School teacher speaking at a UCLA rally rather than a UCLA professor). But I have more to offer about Ron Gochez. His remarks continue on their violent and seditious path with this:
This lunatic who still teaches public high school students calls police “apes of repression,” calls Los Angeles “occupied territories of Mexico,” and speaks frequently of revolution and racism.
Update, June 30, 2010: There’s a new death-threatening outrage from the pro-illegal immigration side that you might also want to consider. In that article, I also deal with just how totally out-of-control the border situation truly is.
Tags: food, Give us free health care, House, It’s about a global struggle against imperialism and capitalism, jobs, La Raza, Latino, no taxes, pro-illegal immigration, protester, sign, UCLA professor, We are revolutionary Mexican organization here, We will no longer fall for these lies called borders, We will shoot more police in Arizona until we get free
Start Thinking Right 
May 10, 2010 at 10:26 am
You might be interested in a post I recently put up. Drop by and check it out.
Jim
May 10, 2010 at 7:29 pm
I wasn’t positive which post you were referring to, but I did go to your site, and liked the cut of your blog’s jib.
I got fixated on your top entry (the story about Obama trying to gut military pay while our soliders are at war).
May 10, 2010 at 7:33 pm
Okay. You may be right but can you tell me the original source of that photo and what was going on. The message on the sign seems out of place with all the American Flags in appearance. Perhaps is was protesting what some Mexicans believe they should get.
May 10, 2010 at 7:49 pm
Michael Eden wake up! The building in the back of the picture is the Los Angeles times building. the photo was taken in California and is a photoshopped fake. If you look you will see lots of American flags which doesn’t go with what is on the sign. If you google what is on the sign you will find the same photo flipped over with different writing on the sign.
May 10, 2010 at 7:54 pm
Beyond the article that I linked to that had the photo, I can’t tell you the original source.
I CAN tell you that the youtube video I posted featuring the UCLA professor is definitely valid. The Latino prof is hard-core Marxist who cited the wonderfulness of communist mass-murderer Che Guevara, among his many unhinged rantings.
I can also tell you that nobody in the picture seems to mind the message very much; a massive contrast from the tea party protesters who were all over bogus leftists who were trying to demonize the tea party with lies.
I know there are a great many MAGNIFICENT Hispanic Americans in this country. Many of them love the USA even more than I do – and I’m honored to call several such Hispanics my friends. But all those protests we’ve seen where Hispanics were carrying MEXICAN flags – and even BURNED American flags – has to tell you that there are a lot of Latinos who EXACTLY connect with the sentiments of that sign. And let’s not forget the five students who got sent home from wearing their “inflammatory” American flags when Hispanic students were wearing Mexican flags by the hundreds.
May 10, 2010 at 8:05 pm
There’s a larger version of the same picture at this link.
If it’s a photoshop, it’s a darned good one.
I DID google what is on the sign. My own site comes up first. And every link I checked had the same picture I’ve got. I finally found a site that had a different slogan – but the guy that created it said that he didn’t think the original had been photoshopped. Look about halfway down this thread for what I’m saying.
I’m somewhat at a loss as to your reasoning that no one would EVER DARE hold such a sign in front of the holy shrine aka the Los Angeles Times building; or that such a protester would never dare hold up such a sign around people carrying American flags.
Frankly, I wish you liberals were quicker to doubt like you are now when your ilk were constantly demonizing the Tea Party events.
Just remember, you people started the “planted protester” crap. And please don’t forget my mantra: “Do Unto Obama As Liberals Did Unto Bush.”
May 11, 2010 at 12:11 pm
I’m not a liberal, or a conservative. Not a Tea Partier either, however I do identify with Libertarians and Independents. This sign is, with little doubt, altered. I say this because common sense dictates that such a sign would not be surrounded by so many American flags! I got suspicious when I read the bottom half of the sign…about killing police. Get real! Totally out of sync with the other items in the photo. Everyone who sees this sign and buys it must look to themselves and say, “Why would someone attribute this to the wrong city if all the other info is correct?” Bias is a strong drug, isn’t it?
May 11, 2010 at 12:25 pm
Here’s a link to the LA Times Building that confirms this is LA, not Phoenix, as attributed elsewhere. Same building, same view I believe…note the metro sign and traffic light, both photos.
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9e/Los_Angeles_Times_building_perspective_side_view.jpg&imgrefurl=http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Los_Angeles_Times_building_perspective_side_view.jpg&usg=__WywN0GFmRD4t6glPP7RRn-w-xkM=&h=683&w=1024&sz=143&hl=en&start=51&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=KnfpbdZ5jLSYxM:&tbnh=100&tbnw=150&prev=/images%3Fq%3DLA%2BTimes%2Bbuilding%26start%3D36%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26ndsp%3D18%26tbs%3Disch:1
May 11, 2010 at 4:09 pm
Jim,
I don’t know what you are ideologically. But I DO know that your argument that the picture had to have been altered doesn’t stand up to the common-sense test.
First of all, for the record, I never said the picture was taken in Arizona or anywhere else. Nor do I see why it matters. There are “Arizona protests” going on all over the country; it could have happened anywhere and it would still be what it is. Unless it is your contention that the LA Times building is so holy, so sacrosanct, so sacred, that no one would ever hold up a hateful sign in front of that hallowed ground, the fact that it is at the LA Times building is meaningless. That is hardly any evidence at all that the photo was faked.
Second, your argument apparently is that there are American flags around, and so therefore it is somehow metaphysically impossible for a protester to bring a hateful sign. Perhaps you reason that people are drawn to events by some homing signal that disconnects their frontal lobe and turns them into mindless herd creatures rather than individual human beings who would be capable of bringing their own beliefs, opinions, and agendas to a protest event.
I have a problem with that: I’ve BEEN to protest events now. There are all kinds of people bringing all kinds of signs. I could have brought WHATEVER sign to the events I attended. To claim that I could not have done so because at least a handful of people brought American flags to the event is frankly ridiculous.
There may have been quite a few other “nasty” signs at this protest. We can’t see from this picture. And we only see a few American flags in this picture.
Here’s a slide show from a past Latino protest (the biggest ever, in fact – May Day 2006) that hardly emphasized the American flag. It was all about the MEXICAN flag. At this event, one girl named Michelle Marquez, a student at Lamar Middle School in Irving, brought an American flag, and was harshly criticized by her fellows (slide 4). She was the only one who had an American flag. She didn’t get the “mass herd mindlessness” memo.
My goodness. There have been times when I was one of a tiny few people at a sporting event wearing my team’s colors in a stadium where thousands of people wore the other team’s colors. And no one ever said, “Well, you couldn’t have been there, then.” Because that would have been a truly stupid charge to make.
The Latino demonstrators learned that day that bringing Mexican flags and insulting the American flag wasn’t (shockingly) the path to the hearts and minds of Americans. So they have largely changed their tactics. But they’re the same people with the same ideologies and the same agendas.
You don’t say anything about the professor’s pro-communist anti-American rant. Was that photoshopped, too???
Maybe video will show up showing that the guy was carrying a different sign – and somebody did in fact photoshop the snapshot we see. But barring that, your arguments just don’t amount to anything.
May 13, 2010 at 7:08 am
ALIPAC has issued a statement regarding the photo with the guy with the sign:
UPDATE 5/10/2010: please do not post or circulate the protest sign that reads “We will shoot more police in Arizona till we get free?” We cannot prove that is a fake, but several of our supporting activists feel the picture is a hoax and has been altered. You can see our full discussions here and make your own determination. Our ruling is that the sign is problematic and we cannot document a source, therefore it should not be further circulated.
http://www.alipac.us/ftopict-197478.html
May 13, 2010 at 9:00 pm
I’ll allow the link. And I’ll point out that ALIPAC and conservatives are demonstrating that they are a hell of a lot more concerned with the truth than the left and the mainstream media – which repeatedly and continually demonized the Tea Parties over demagogic insinuation and innuendo and virtually NO FACTS.
It’s nice that conservatives are demonstrating that, once again, they are morally superior to the left in every way.
As ALIPAC points out, there’s no direct evidence that this picture was faked. And, let’s face it, it would have been a heck of a lot easier for someone copying the left’s vile tactics to just show up at a pro-illegal immigration event carrying that sign.
It’s possible the picture was faked. It’s also possible it wasn’t. But if we use the same standard of proof that the left has used against the Tea Parties, that picture MUST be regarded as ironclad proof that anyone who doesn’t like the Arizona law is violent and racist.
So let’s not talk about the picture. Let’s talk about La Raza (“The Race,” as in, “The Racists). Let’s talk about the video of the teacher professing communism, calling for a communist revolution, demonizing what he labels “Frail, racist white people.” Let’s talk about the fact that nobody on the left has actually bothered to read the ten page law which is almost entirely based on federal law. Eric Holder came out after the Arizona law passed and demonized it. Then we find out today that the man didn’t even bother to read the 10 page law that he demonized. Let’s talk about the fact that the Obama administration is all about fearmongering and naked demagoguery and nothing at all about actual law or justice.
Let’s talk about that stuff instead. I’m happy to have that conversation.
May 14, 2010 at 8:05 pm
http://urbanlegends.about.com/od/socialpoliticalissues/ss/immigration_protest_sign.htm
Here you go, try using a better search engine next time. Clearly anyone that knows anything about photography can spot this as a fake photo and a viral photo. It never surprises me to find trash like this nor does it surprise me that people believe this is real.
I don’t expect you will post this.
May 14, 2010 at 10:43 pm
Why shouldn’t I post it? It shows that you have a worse problem with honesty than what you deceitfully portray me as having.
I went to the link that you offered, D.G. And there was ABSOLUTELY NOTHING offered to argue or claim that the picture was in any way false. They have this: “Status: Investigating.” And then there are three emails that attempt to describe what the picture means. Yet you dishonestly present the link as though it somehow proved the picture was faked when it does no such thing. And you dishonestly cite that link as grounds to tell me that I should “try using a better search engine next time.” At this point, the only one making patently false claims around here is YOU.
I actually DO know something about photography. I’ve had quite a few cameras and taken quite a few pictures. Your claim re: “Clearly anyone that knows anything about photography” is just rubbish. I actually went to a site where people with a lot of expertise in photoshopping programs argued about this image. There was no “clearly” there, no consensus. One guy said that if it was faked, it most certainly wasn’t faked in Photoshop, but with software he wasn’t familiar with.
I wonder this: were you out hotly contesting every claim that was maliciously assigned to the Tea Party protests, or is you argument now purely and merely ideological rather than factual???
At the very worst (assuming for the sake of argument that this is a fake), this is merely a very rare example of the right doing what the left has repeatedly and continually done to it. You people punch us repeatedly in the mouth, and then cry when we finally slap you.
May 15, 2010 at 7:05 am
When you first saw this photograph, did you think it was real?
http://www.snopes.com/photos/politics/bushbook.asp
If you had a website then, would you have rushed to publish it without realizing it was a fake? And if you saw this TV Guide cover when it first hit the news stands, did you really think that was Oprah’s body?
Or did you suspect that someone had done some photo doctoring?
But let’s get back to the so-called “Arizona demonstration”. If you have a website in which you want others to believe you are a seeker of truth, then why didn’t you do the required amount of research to learn that the photo was actually taken of an IRANIAN demonstration near the L.A. Times building and that the protestors were standing in opposition to the recent election that had occurred in Iran? For example, please note the green neckerchiefs in this photo, which was taken on that day. That green color is one of the colors of the Iranian flag, and those same green neckerchiefs show up in the “Arizona” photo you rushed to publish. Just a coincidence, you say?
Yeh, sure.
May 15, 2010 at 7:49 am
In my last correspondence with your website, I neglected to add a photo from the Iranian demonstration in Los Angeles. If you will, please note the people with green scarves.
LOS ANGELES: http://livingincinema.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/Iran-Protest.jpg
Mind you, the green scarf/neckerchief is no idle clothing accessory. Here, for example, is a photo of another Iranian demonstration that was snapped in Amsterdam.
AMSTERDAM: http://img.youtube.com/vi/B6fEB8EFxn0/0.jpg
Now, if you look closely at the photo you published in your website, you will see two guys with the exact same colored cloth hanging around their necks. I mean, what are the odds, huh?
May 15, 2010 at 11:04 am
Ron Gochez (the YouTube video) is not a UCLA professor. Please don’t smear my alma mater.
May 15, 2010 at 4:07 pm
Regarding the teacher in the “revolutionary” video at UCLA. It is important to note that he in fact is NOT a UCLA teacher. He is a high school teacher who was merely speaking at the rally on the UCLA campus. Big difference, if at least for his credentials. He is definitely racist and hateful though, and actually speaks out against education – favoring revolution and militia-action instead. I’d be surprised if he still had a job of any sort by now.
May 15, 2010 at 4:29 pm
I found out not very long after posting that you are correct. He is a high school teacher, who was a featured speaker at a rally which took place at UCLA. I frankly didn’t think the error was particularly worth correcting. But you raise a good point. So I will make the correction.
May 15, 2010 at 4:32 pm
I just responded to Bruin, acknowledged the error, and will correct.
I’m not sure that the “professor” credential raises the level of the views offered, but you might be right.
The sad thing is that full professors are almost impossible to fire, and on top of that, many universities have gone to bat for their associate profs unless the ravings really started to hurt the school.
Ron Gochez STILL has a job at his public school.
May 15, 2010 at 4:36 pm
Philip. I just made the correction.
Like I said, I became aware of the “professor” vs. “teacher” thing not long after posting, and simply didn’t think it was particularly worth correcting at the time. My mistake. Facts are facts, even when one might seem minor or irrelevant to a particular person.
Don’t want a bunch of angry Bruins. UCLA is my brother’s graduate alma mater.
May 15, 2010 at 4:41 pm
Howard,
You bring up an important point. Leftists frequently war with one another (e.g., the socialist Nazis warred with the socialist Russians; the socialist Russians had frequent tensions with the socialist Chinese), but very often leftists are leftists and have no problem taking part in one anothers’ causes. You’ve got a lot of Code Pink and union types serving as goons for abortion escorts, as another example. We’re also seeing the Shiite Iranians assisting the Sunni al Qaeda.
It doesn’t surprise me one bit that pro-Iranian types and pro-La Raza types would go hand in hand. They have the same end of toppling the United States in their hearts.
May 15, 2010 at 4:52 pm
I responded to your second comment first. And now understand what you are contending better.
The mere fact that you see a couple of guys with green (T-shirts, apparently), does not mean that the protest is Iranian, rather than Mexican, or that the picture is a fake.
Green is part of the Mexican flag. The home jersey of the Mexican national soccer team is GREEN.
As for your posted images that are fakes, we all know that some images have been faked. But that certainly doesn’t mean that ALL images are fakes. I mean, how does the Bush ‘upside-down book’ picture prove that the Mexican protest picture is a fake?
What it DOES show is that, as I’ve said, the left has been doing this kind of crap for YEARS. They are unrelenting liars. And they have been allowed to get away with their lies for years.
Now a conservative may have finally pulled one of these liberal-taught lies of his own, and you would have thought a bomb had been exploded somewhere.
If I see a disproof of the picture, I’ll admit my error. Until then, given the recent demonization of the Tea Parties with not even so much as a fake picture as “proof,” I’m keeping it up. I STILL have not seen any meaningful refutation of the picture as valid.
May 16, 2010 at 1:38 am
It’s faked.
The link you posted to where they discuss whether or not it’s faked is not a professional site but “cold steel enthusiasts” who still conclude it’s faked ;)
But go ahead and have a look at the higher quality image you mention:
0) Zoom in
1) Note the top line of the bottom sign… on the left it blurs into the top sign, on the right, it is a little more distinct. The lower sign was added later and blended on. In fact, this fellow’s sign is probably the same paper, square dimension, and post used by the friend walking in front of him. Just one square sign.
2) To the left of the bottom sign, notice how there is a line of white in the kid’s hair. That’s not a hat or a yarmulke or ribbon, that’s part of the paint job this photo’s creator did in working out the lower sign. You can see how the line of white in the guy’s hair continues on into the side of the bottom sign itself. Overlaps like this are your key telltale to a fake.
3) There is a LOT of noise in the writing and a lot of red bleed on the bottom sign. Yes a flash or the sun could cause some of that toning but it’s more likely an artifact of trying to get the red text to look real and blending it with the background.
4) There is also a white paint streak on the woman’s hair beneath the sign and on her nose…. and a little bit above her/the american flag. The one in her hair is NOT a barrette or a ribbon but more sloppiness by the creator.
5) I just made a fake of this for a friend to demonstrate how to do it — I can’t post it here because I put his name in it ;) — but I used the clone stamp tool to preserve the whitish background of the sign, erased the entire thing, and then made my own… I scanned the text and pasted it, darkened it, then blurred it with the rest of the sign… you could use a stylus to write directly on the blanked out area and then blend it for realism.
6) We’ve all seen very good photoshopped work by now…this one would be the easiest to do because it’s a white/off-white poster. Far easier than any other Photoshop work! A pro will tell you the art of making whites look perfect is actually one of the more nuanced, but this is not a nuanced effort ;)
Take care and have fun protecting the castle.
Jimbo
May 16, 2010 at 4:18 am
Dear Michael et al,
This picture was originally emailed to me. The moment I saw it I knew that something was not right with the photo. 1st – there is no shadow on his right index finger holding the sign, yet the entire “poster” is in shadow. 2nd- there are no “attachments” ie. nails, staples, etc. visibly holding the sign to the wood. 3rd – the lack if “pixel noise” on the poster indicates that a solid coloring tool was used “cover up” what was originally written. Any time you blow up a photo, even white backgrounds will pixilate and the poster does not. By the way, this is what I used to do for a living. The photo has been changed. Isn’t it funny that the author of the original has not posted it.
May 16, 2010 at 8:04 pm
Hi,
I’ve got some strong evidence that the photo is faked. I do a lot of research into faked photos for various research projects, and have broken it down here: http://bit.ly/SignsOfTrickery
I’m pretty liberal myself, but come from a very, very conservative family and spend a lot of time sorting out fake information from real in the chain e-mails that my family sends. All I ask is that arguments be backed up with truth not lies and hoaxes.
I hope you’ll take a moment to check out my analysis. I’m confident that additional photos will come out soon to reveal whatever the protester was really saying, but the sign (especially the bottom one) has every indication of being faked.
May 16, 2010 at 9:27 pm
Blake,
I did go to your link (and you’ll notice I didn’t delete it), and it was interesting.
I could respond by saying that your demonstration was faked. I mean, that’s the level that what we’re talking about, right???
That might not be fully honest, but that seems to be the level a lot of ideologues are at.
My other response is to notice that you appear to be saying only the BOTTOM portion of the sign is faked; NOT the top part that says give us free everything and you owe us America.
You’ve got to realize that the top part is nearly as offensive to me as the bottom part.
If the top part of the sign is authentic, I’m still beyond outraged.
All that said, I applaud you for 1) openly stating you have a bias (as I do); and 2) making a legitimate attempt to substantiate your claim based on an appeal to facts.
May 16, 2010 at 9:45 pm
What I find interesting is that I went to Blake’s comment (in which he uses digital software to examine the photo) and the top portion passes muster, whereas he argues the bottom has been faked (i.e., the part about killing police).
Then you come along and say, no, the whole thing is faked.
Well, it can’t be both.
And the bottom line is that that – at least in apparent terms – having contradictory arguments undermines the case you’re trying to make.
Being a non-photog guy, I don’t know if the photo is faked based on digital software expertise.
I agree with what Blake said (in terms of how this photo would be disproved if it is faked):
If this is a software enhanced picture, we’ll ultimately see photos or video of the original image that show whatever “true” message.
May 17, 2010 at 11:02 am
I couldn’t say with 100% certainty that the top has been altered. Parts of it have been messed with – so they could have deleted words. But the bottom looks to have been deleted and re-written or added completely.
I did a longer analysis at the AtlantaSkeptics website. The photo is “Faked” in that the bottom is definitely hoaxed. Does the top part really demand free stuff? It could. My suspicion is that it has been partly re-written, but I’d like to see the original un-touched photo.
But as far as saying the whole photo is “faked” I mean that in the sense that somebody turned this guy’s sign – whatever it said – into a cop-killer argument. That’s low.
The guy could be a socialist, or a communist, or an anarchist – and I’d be fine with him out there with his sign. But threatening cops just seemed unlikely and the evidence supports that part being hoaxed.
Thanks for posting the link. I think civil discussions make the country better and appreciate the dialogue.
May 17, 2010 at 12:58 pm
Blake,
As I said earlier, I appreciated your honesty and your willingness to offer logical argument.
I have frequently matched tones with liberal commenters when they have been rude. Hopefully I have been at least as willing to match tones when liberal commenters have been courteous.
One of the things that has bothered me the most is how Bush and Republicans have been brought down and constantly smeared with unending lies. On the one had, I realize that that tactic would most definitely work to undermine and ultimately bring down Obama and Democrats. To wit,
Do Unto Obama As Liberals Did Unto Bush
At the same time, it is in my nature to want to be fair and to seek and present the truth.
But at some point you either fight a dirty opponent dirty, or you decide to lose the fight and get slaughtered.
I no longer trust the vast majority of liberals to be willing to be honest. Most liberals – given their postmodernism and secular humanism – even believe in objective moral categories such as “truth” to begin with. So they are at the level of pragmatism and whatever “works” – and smears and lies work.
All that said, I would not have posted this picture had I known it was faked. At the time I posted it, I had no reasons not to accept it. And I still don’t have that “smoking gun” that any part of it is faked (you think you’ve got a smoking gun regarding the bottom half of the sign, I get that; and I allowed you to present it because I DO care about the truth).
If I see that smoking gun, I’ll acknowledge it.
That said, I still wouldn’t take down the article. And there’s a reason for that, too. I stand behind what I say. I don’t post smears, and then wipe my blog when the smear is revealed as though I never did anything wrong.
The Daily Kos posted the most hateful articles imaginable claiming that Bristol Palin had given birth to Trig, fathered by her own father (and Sarah Palin’s husband), and Sarah Palin had claimed the child as hers to cover up the scandal. There was an argument presented “proving” this, complete with a timeline and statements that Sarah had never appeared pregnant, etc. And then the news about Britstol Palin’s own pregnancy came out, which conclusively proved that there was no biological way she could have been Trig’s mother.
And then all of a sudden the Kos just scrubbed their website of those articles, as though it had never happened. No apology, no retraction. They were just gone.
I’m not that kind of dishonest vermin.
That said, the Daily Kos is one of the largest publications from the political left. They are so powerful that they have hosted major Democrat presidential debates.
Now, the entire Democrat Party has offically smeared and demonized Fox News – and their candidates boycotted a debate hosted by Fox News – when they have embraced the filth of the Daily Kos.
What do you do when your opposition is determined to embrace dishonesty and practice vile tactics???
I am in a personal quandry about that.
I do know one thing: no one on the left has the right to lecture conservatives until they clean up their own willingness to embrace lies.
All of that said, I will always attempt to be polite and argue based on the facts with those from the left who are willing to do the same. And I thank you for being one of those honorable leftists.
May 17, 2010 at 1:18 pm
Actually, I’ve got to correct you. Some said it was faked, others insisted it wasn’t. And the people who concluded it was faked offered contradictory arguments in claiming it was faked.
For the record, showing how a picture could have been faked is also a very different thing from proving that a particular picture was faked.
It sounds likely that there were two posters, a top one which was not faked, and a bottom one that was “added in.” The bottom poster is outrageous; but the top poster is virtually AS outrageous to anyone who cares about the USA and the American way of life.
P.S. I’m not trying to protect a castle. If anything, I’m trying to storm one and bring it crashing down.
June 14, 2010 at 11:15 am
What’s more likely – that the sign is real, or fake?
Perhaps it is real, but remember that the people trading in this photo, passing it around from email to email, message board to blog and on and on are the same people who pass around fake photos of the president and first lady using the wrong hand while saying the pledge…
These people have no credibility. They fake photos all the time.
This photo reaffirms preconceived notions among the entho-nationalists known as the Tea Party… they require this type of constant emotional input to maintain their indefensible values.
June 14, 2010 at 7:05 pm
Goodbar, you are a hypocrite without shame.
Where were you when George Bush was being attacked again and again? Did you defend him? Were you outraged over the tactics? Of course you weren’t, because that would have meant you possessed at least a tiny shred of integrity. And you don’t got any.
What’s an “entho-nationalist,” anyway? Are you trying to use a term beyond your IQ level again? I presume that you, being a racist racebaiting bigot, are trying to drag your racism into your opponents’ views. Psychologists call it “projection.” You’re a racist, and therefore can’t think beyond race. So you assume that everyone else is as racist as yourself.
Let us never forget that Democrats were the party of slavery. And that Democrats were the creators of the Ku Klux Klan. It literally took a war in which Democrats had to be militarily crushed to keep them from enslaving people based on the color of their skin. And thank God for the Republican Party and a Republican president for freeing the slaves from Democrats. Let’s not forget that Woodrow Wilson – Democrat president and the father of the progressive movement – RE-segregated the military after Republicans had DE-segregated it. Let us not forget that Wilson cheered the racist propaganda film “Birth of a Nation.” Let us never forget that the national party convention that was so directly tied to the Ku Klux Klan that it was called the “Klanbake” was the 1924 DEMOCRAT convention. Let’s not forget that FDR’s New Deal directly attacked blacks and kept them from getting jobs.
As we move into the 1950s we find that a Democrat Governor, Orval Faubus, called out the National Guard in 1957 to prevent black children being integrated into white schools. And again, a Republican president had to rise to the occasion, with Dwight D. Eisenhower sending in US Army airborne troops to enforce racial equality that had once again been opposed by Democrats. And of course Alabama Democrat Governor George Wallace would fight for racist segregation all over again in 1963. It was Democrat John F. Kennedy who sent in the troops this time. But that same John Kennedy had previously voted AGAINST the Civil Rights Act.
And let us not forget that both the famous Martin Luther King, Sr. and his even more famous son were both registered Republicans. It’s a shame that the pseudo civil rights leaders of today aren’t fit to carry Martin Luther King’s shoes, much less criticize his party affiliation.
Martin Luther King, Jr. and Frederick Douglas BOTH fundamentally opposed the quotas and preferential treatment that Democrats have employed to create the equivalent of the “house negro.” Jack Greenberg of the NAACP said in the 1950s that “The chief problem with quotas is that they introduce a potentially retrogressive concept into the cherished notion of individual equality.”
Let’s listen to Frederick Douglas, escaped slave and greatest of all champions of civil rights, has to say:
So we’re now racists for agreeing with Frederick Douglas and Martin Luther King, Jr and against you vile liberals and your vile pseudo values?
Richard Nixon, whom Democrats love to make the poster boy for Republican racism, was the first president to introduce the racial quotas that Democrats have been trying to implement and expand ever since. Democrats have been swimming in Nixon’s racism ever since.
You liberals are biblical – and never in a good way:
History proves that YOU are the racists, and we have stood for genuine equality again and again.
And “indefensible values”? The values that we’re representing are the same values that have stood for 2,000 years. It’s YOUR postmodern, just-invented-yesterday crap values that are totally indefensible.
June 30, 2010 at 1:27 am
Michael, I couldn’t agree with you more on what has been presented here. It seems that the liberals prefer to play the smoke and mirrors game regarding the picture’s veracity rather than discuss the fact that the sentiment behind the picture is still real. Whether fake or not, it represents a certain degree of truthfulness within the mindset of many. It was a loss of civic virtue that played a key role in the fall of Rome. The American Empire is falling in much the same way. The photoshopped cry for wolf is a liberal red herring that only serves to distract people from the real issue at hand. Not a one of your opponents have argued or discussed the undebatable issues that have lead to such a sign. Why can’t the left just speak the truth? I’d have much more respect for them if they just came out and said, “Bend over and grab your ankles; this may hurt a little, but it’s something you’ll get used to.”
June 30, 2010 at 9:21 am
itcob,
Here’s another article that features another death threat by a pro-illegal immigration Hispanic. Maybe the left can say she’s fake, too.
I’m glad you got that part about liberals who come in and try to change the subject, rather than argue over the relevant facts.
As to your last sentence, here’s the response: “Better to starve free than to die a fat slave.”
July 7, 2010 at 12:33 pm
I’ve read much of what is posted here. I am willing to disclose that I am conservative, but foremost that I despise hoaxes and emails that defraud the reader and prejudice the masses – regardless of who is disadvantaged or advantaged by the truth or hoax. Furthermore, I am not a certified expert in photo altering (like some who’ve posted here). But I have worked in a bank and was taught somewhat concerning HANDWRITING & FORGERY, which has not been addressed in this blog. SO, I downloaded the photo, zoomed in considerably, noticed some things, and want to make a few points of my own.
1) Yes, there are blur areas between the top and bottom of the sign. But there are also the same kinds of blurs in most of the open spaces throughout the picture.
>> Advantage: REAL
2) I noticed that the bottom half is a different shade of white and off sized from the top width. Logically, in order to complete a good hoax, a good photoshopper would not have done that.
a) White: Why not just copy the general white shade from the top and paste it into the bottom ‘faked’ square?
b) Off sized: Instead of making the bottom square noticeably smaller than the top, only to leave an “inch” of useless picture-area (i.e. devoid of helpful or tale-tell clues) surrounding the bottom half of the sign, why not instead just continue the width from the top half and make it look like one large placard? A hoaxer intent on stirring up prejudice and discrediting demagoguery gains nothing by botching it the way it IS in the picture.
>> Advantage: REAL
3) As handwriting goes, it is easy to spot a forged signature by comparing it to a genuine signature with both of them turned upside-down. Real vs. fake alone, they will look like two entirely different signature styles (because they are), even though when looking at them straight on they may appear to be very close. (You can test this with yourself; sign twice, but the second time do something subtly different. Then turn them upside-down and you’ll see they are a lot more similar than they are different.) THAT SAID, I turned this picture upside-down and noticed a few things:
a) The angle and style of the word “FREE” at the top and bottom are practically identical.
b) the “R”s are identical in style & angle throughout the placard.
c) The cross of the “T”s are consistently started at a lower point relative to the preceding letter in almost every case.
d) The letter “O” typically resides in the upper 2/3 of words (both top and bottom of placard), and is most often smaller than the relative size of other letters near it.
e) This is not an exact science, but there are also several examples of similar/exact writing styles of other letters found in both the top and bottom (e.g. W, A, U, E, S, & I), but the most dominant giveaways are the letters R, T and O.
f) Instead of writing flat to an imaginary line, there are two things: 1] the writer’s line has a consistent upward trend the further to the right he goes (like a golf slice), and 2] the ‘floor’ of his words against that same imaginary line rises and falls throughout the word like the silhouette of a rolling hill (e.g. esp. see the words health, house, America, shoot, Arizona & get). That trait too is consistent from top to bottom.
>> Advantage: REAL, and SAME WRITER
And lastly, again – why would a GOOD photoshopper go to such lengths to make it look crappy when he could have made it look convincing, leaving no doubts and let the bigotry fly? And, how would a POOR photoshopper get the handwriting in both halves perfect (IMHO)!??
My conclusion: whoever made and carried that sign is an idiot indeed, and in reality made it with real posterboard, only to tack on the bottom at the last minute (an afterthought), AND has poor handwriting, planning and thinking “skillzz.”
What I find unfortunate is that there are a lot of good, hard-working, legal Latinos in this country (who are good and fine people, which I can say because I KNOW them — PLENTY of them!) who get a bad wrap because of LAZY IDIOTS like the one pictured, and who are then victimized with the same thoughtless prejudice that was suffered by “blacks” and others in this country. It disappoints me to see the picture of this sign, and to see it flying around the Internet as if it’s justification to hate all Latinos, because this one man’s sentiments are not the same as those of others in his own race.
But my most unfortunate conclusion is that …unfortunately, I think it’s real.
July 7, 2010 at 2:21 pm
I know what I would have done if I’d wanted to advance a fraud: I would have gone to a leftist pro-immigration event, unfurled my sign, had my partner take my picture and some video holding the sign at the event, hung around a few minutes to see if I could find an even BETTER venue for an even BETTER photograph, and gone home to post my nasty picture.
That was exactly what the left was doing again and again during tea party events. And the media would even use brief video clips to “prove” that the people described by ostensibly objective journalists as “tea baggers” (which is a vile sexual reference) were racists.
One of the articles on my blog provides documented proof that the left was calling for infiltrators to go in with hateful signs or saying hateful things to get on the news to taint the tea party movement.
The thing that sets me off is that all these liberals who were so quick to say this crap about tea party people – or at least believe it – are now so up in arms when some anti-liberal gives them a dose of their own dirty trick medicine.
As far as the sign in question goes, from the best of my ability to know the truth, I think there are two signs, and that the top sign is authentic, and that the bottom sign was added later. So the threat to kill police may be bogus.
But the top part of the sign that’s authentic is vile enough! I would have written this article just with that!!!
July 12, 2010 at 11:37 am
Republicans keep forwarding this photoshopped fake photo around. As long as they can maintain their fear of the “other” they feel better. Whipping up fear and paranoia is the best way to get Republicans to vote.
July 12, 2010 at 8:14 pm
I can see why you wear a name that sounds so similar to “laugh,” Lauffabelle, because I just laugh my ass off at you.
You’re too damn ignorant to understand that at worst, Republicans are responding to years of Democrats having done the same thing. You’re too damn ignorant to understand that only a few months ago, a liberal was openly urging Democrats to show up at tea party events and bring racist signs or say racist things to try to get on media news coverage and taint the movement.
Just too damn ignorant.
Personally, I would love it if nothing but the truth got presented. But liberals – who as faithful postmodernists don’t even believe objective truth EXISTS – will never have that.
And there comes a point when, if your enemy firebombs your cities, you firebomb THEIR cities.
“Do unto Obama as liberals did unto Bush.”
July 12, 2010 at 9:42 pm
To Lauffabelle,
…oh, so Republicans whip up fear… as opposed to what Liberals do? Which is,
To get out the vote multiple times over per person from people who are not even citizens of this country, ala ACORN?
Or beat up, intimidate and create fear in those who oppose them, attempting to discourage the opposing votes and voices from even participating out of fear, ala SIEU?
Or claim that it’s okay to “not like” Bush, McCain, Palin, even Keyes, Clarence Thomas…even Clinton! – it’s all okay. But to merely “disagree with” the messianic arrogant no butt Obama, nor bow down at the mention of his name is to be a racist? Are you kidding me?!!
Liberals don’t whip up fear??? You ARE OUT OF TOUCH WITH
R-E-A-L-I-T-Y!!!
Tell me, when was the last time you saw a Liberal/Democrat called out by the mainstream media for being a radical citizen, or heard someone – anyone! – in the press say of a Lib/Dem, “Can you believe what that man’s sign says!? How dare he carry that.” Let me help… uh, that would be NEVER!! No, they’re not going to say that because they’re not going to call out THEIR OWN!!
— As opposed to, how many times have you heard Conservatives/Republicans/Tea Party AMERICANS called out as radicals, rabid, fringe, “out-of-touch,” etc. by that same media over the past 18 months?!! It’s been non-stop! Paranoia?? Who’s paranoid?!! DEMOCRATS!
YOU are the Racist!!
When someone on the Right carries a sign it is never questioned as a fake photoshop job by a plant on the left to excuse the content — it’s just called out as “they’re crazy, racist, bigotted, narrow minded, etc.,” and the slight is never questioned for its authenticity or honesty. BUT WHEN A LIBERAL LATINO crashes a Tea Party IN L.A.!!! …with a pro-left message and a big splash of hatred, “Oh…it was a plant…It was photoshopped by a Republican…It’s fake…Nobody would ever do that…they’re just trying to make liberals look bad…” blah blah blah…whatever crap…
Bigot!
1) Wanting to think the sign was a fake, I did my own analysis and concluded just the opposite for the technical reasons I stated in my previous post. I believe that the sign is legitimate (and that THE ONE MAN holding it is a political novice and complete ignoramus tool).
2) The problem with liberals and democrats is that they have their heads so far up the black hole of socialism’s utopia that they can’t even think outside their hole! And since they like it so much up there, they want everybody else to subsidize them and join them.
ANAL!
3) Democrats are going to be thrown out of office in droves this fall so fast their heads won’t have TIME to spin…they’ll be too busy packing to get out of Dodge to save face. Look back to the Clinton era 1994 mid-term election. Go read history pal and get a grip on reality. Or, just sit back and watch the sequel called “November 2010.” And if you don’t know what I’m talking about, it’s ok, I’m not surprised.
I for one am SICK of the left agenda, -RACIST!- sick of the media, -BIGOT!- sick of them throwing my country and her people and freedoms under the bus, -WHACKO!- sick of seeing Obama’s frickin’ arrogant mug everywhere I turn – RACIST!- …fyi, my sentiment about Billy Boy was identical during his 8 year gaffe -MONICA!BILL JOB!-
…and I can’t WAIT to take back the America I grew up with, as did my father and his father, and his father, and his father. It is the America I know and love. It is the America that is the greatest nation in the world (you know, the one Obama thinks he needs to change because it’s so great). America IS the greatest nation on the face of the earth still (barring what Obama does). She may have her flaws, indeed, but the fact is she has prospered like no other country ever has, and has made every descent and respectable country on this planet more respectable and more successful than they were before — unless they were hateful war mongers hell bent on greed and destruction, in which cases the vast majority of them we obliterated for the good of all. Say what you want, but time and the facts will bear that out to be true. Watch and learn.
Want socialism? Move to North Korea or Cuba, keep your Obama Change (because that’ll be all you’re worth) and knock yourself out; Whoopahhh! …But let it be clear: Socialism is not welcome here, comrade. -RACIST!- I know, I know…
Cheers
July 12, 2010 at 10:38 pm
Lauffabelle,
What BJ said.
Sincerely,
Michael Eden
January 18, 2011 at 10:05 pm
A friend posted this on Facebook . . . I saved & opened up that photo and started zooming in to the sign, where it is easy to tell that it has been photo-shopped – On the top sign, all of the words are on islands of a white color that is different than the white background color of the sign. You should be able to see this also if you go look – and it is a direct proof that this text was laid over the sign in the picture.
Also, I was initially clued in because of bleeding red in the lower sign that is visible without zooming in. That isn’t a complete proof of photoshopping as it could be from legitimate photo processing . . . for example reducing the size of the photo so it could be more easily posted online will blur text like that. However, I do not see this effect on other items in the photo, for example shadows on the pavement would also be blurred. The red text, then, is fishy at best.
Thanks
January 19, 2011 at 8:48 am
Alan,
I’ve kind of moved past this, but I remember in all the comments I allowed some that pointed out that the “bottom sign” was added in, but that the top sign appeared legitimate. I am not an expert in photo-editing. I have never “edited” a photograph – save to ‘auto-enhance’ dark pictures – and find the entire act of doing so somewhat bizarre.
The funniest thing about this is that, in order to get to the truth about the picture, I have to rely on the various opinions of people who have willingly chosen to misrepresent photos as their hobby. I mean, what are you to say to people who say, “I’m a expert at doctoring pictures, and this picture is clearly doctored!”??? And I’m like, “And I should believe a guy who doctors pictures why, exactly?”
I think I also said in one of my comments that, knowing what I know now, I would not have run this article with this picture. Because I don’t deliberately publish deceit.
Unlike many blogs on the left, which routinely post hateful stuff and then taking them down to delete the evidence when all the facts come out, I DON’T take down any of my posts. I have NEVER taken down a post. And while that opens me up to obvious criticism which I would not otherwise have to endure, I simply consider it a matter of integrity. I stand behind what I did.
January 19, 2011 at 4:17 pm
I am a liberal & I would also be angry about a mentality suggested by this picture. I think anyone who works hard would.
I am not criticizing this, its just that a conservative friend of mine had just posted it last night on Facebook, and while looking into it, I found this page and left basically the same comment here that I did on his page.
I only know about Photoshop because I got into it while doing a website for my work (for a women’s tennis tournament) (I notice you also use WordPress for your blog)
I am going to check out your site more later, thanks for your reply
January 20, 2011 at 12:59 am
Alan,
The bottom line is that this particular photo – doctored, partly doctored, or wholly doctored – is only a tiny fraction of what is going on. The Hispanic in the photo with the sign? Throw him out; I’ve got video of mobs of Mexicans physically attacking a man and throwing bottles and other objects at police who are literally running away in Arizona. I’ve got a video of a Los Angeles Hispanic activist and teacher calling for violence. I’ve got video of a bunch of union thugs attacking a black tea party member in St. Louis. We’ve got video of an attack by leftists in Tampa. There was the story about a rabid liberal who attended a counter-demonstration who attacked a man (who hadn’t even attended the tea party rally) and bit off the bystander’s finger.
This one’s quite new to me: a black union activist barged into a tea party protest, started shouting and quickly afterward started throwing punches.
http://michellemalkin.com/2011/01/10/the-progressive-climate-of-hate-an-illustrated-primer-2000-2010/
https://startthinkingright.wordpress.com/2010/04/17/actual-leftwing-violence-keeps-piling-up-while-media-focuses-on-threat-from-tea-parties/
https://startthinkingright.wordpress.com/2010/04/19/left-continues-violence-media-continues-to-demagogue-tea-parties/
The left has been the source of violence in virtually every case since the 1960s and earlier. Do you know the last time a congressman was shot? It was by a leftist Puerto-Rican rights group. And the only actual threat of violence related to the Tucson shooting? It was a liberal shooting victim who photographed a tea party leader and shouted “You’re dead!”
I guess what I’m saying is that this photograph amounts to one case among many, many others.
And, on the area of deception, we’ve also got plenty of cases there. We’ve got faked photos from liberals (such as Bush reading the children’s book during the 9/11 attack upside down; John McCain with blood on his face and fangs; and all kinds of crap). We’ve also got liberals stating their intent to infiltrate tea party events with hateful signs and shirts – and then in fact trying to do so.
If it turns out the picture was faked, this despicable tactic came from the left:
I’m glad you’re trying to find out what’s TRUE. It makes you decent.
But this picture is just one obviously disputable event in a sea of totally indisputable events. I just wanted to make that clear.
March 1, 2011 at 8:29 am
This photo came to me just the other day, with an email accompanying it saying that the rally happened a few weeks ago in Arizone, which was obviously untrue. Having worked with graphic design my entire professional career, tI can spot that his is not only fake, but a poorly made fake at that.
I have always voted Republican, but I truly identify with no political party these days because of fake news from Fox, a bevy of poorly researched emails from my more right-wing friends, etc. What really bothers me about this type of viral email, just like the one I got a few months ago saying Obama changed the curtains in the White House to curtains with “Arabic Symbols” on them (turns out they are the same damn curtains that have been there since Reagan) or the one about House Bill 4646 that was reported to be “pushed through Congress in november” even though the bill had zero backing and had been lingering for a year without any Dem support – is that the more info I receive from people trying to sway me one way or another, the less I read it because it is too often inaccurate and alarmist in nature.
This presidential administration’s actions alone should warrant all the disdain you have for it, without having to make up scare tactics and send viral information that is poorly researched and inaccurate. If we send out information that is not accurate we, ALSO, are forwarding our agenda by fraud and corruption, just as liberals have done previously…
We risk losing our voice if our voice is not honest.
March 1, 2011 at 2:30 pm
Alabama Guy,
If you’re going to challenge people to be honest, I would suggest that you start with yourself.
You said, “because of fake news from Fox…” But you don’t feel you have any need to back up such an attack with actual facts. You don’t feel any need whatsoever after claiming that Fox News lies, to cite so much as a single lie told by Fox News journalists. Can you document, for example, that Fox News reported that Obama replaced the White House drapes with ones with Arabic symbols, or are you conflating things much the same way the photoshoppers you don’t like do?
Then there’s the fact that you say you’re no longer a member of a political party. Good, I suppose. Then sit down in the corner and shut up. Because you’re voice doesn’t count any more than the vote you’re not bothering to use.
If you intend to be an intelligent, moral person, Alabama, you’re going to have to pick a side in this debate. There are two radically different visions for America being presented. And you lack the facilities to tell one from the other?
If you’re going to take the attitude that you’re not going to vote for Republicans because you got an email from somewhere – and because you’ve got a bunch of unsubstantiated accusations against a news station – so you’re going to let Democrats implode this country and make your children pay skyhigh interest rates on a debt they can never hope to repay, then I would say you clearly shouldn’t vote.
All that said, I don’t intentionally lie or misrepresent facts. But I can get fooled now and then. When that has happened, I don’t do what liberal sites like the Daily Kos did when they claimed that Bristol Palin had been molested by her father, and that Sarah Palin’s son Trig was actually Bristol’s incest child. I take the heat and let people correct me with facts. THAT’S the reason this article is still up.
But I also realize that we need to “Do Unto Obama As Liberals Did Unto Bush,” as I wrote. And liberals took Bush down one bloody chunk of meat at a time. And we’ve got to fight back; we’ve got to realize that we either get ready to sling as much mud as the left slings, or just quit. Because when one side constantly accuses the other of horrible things, and the side being accused doesn’t fight back, that side loses. That’s what Hitler realized in his “Big Lie” idea.
So I’ve chosen a side (it seems unlike you) and I’m doing the best job I can to fight back (which you also don’t seem to be doing). It seems to me that if this were WWII, I’d be a soldier fighting the Nazis, and you’d be some protester saying, “Look at this little thing you guys did over here.” When what you SHOULD be doing is recognizing the totality of what is going on and joining me in the fight against a far greater evil.
Let me give you one giant example.
Prior to Bush’s invasion of Iraq, there were all kinds of documented statements from the most prominent Democrats of the time saying Saddam Hussein had WMD and we needed to deal with the threat –
http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/b/bushlied.htm
http://www.freedomagenda.com/iraq/wmd_quotes.html
http://www.snopes.com/politics/war/wmdquotes.asp
But after Bush attacked Iraq on the very same basis that these Democrats are on the factual record having made, these Democrats turned on Bush, and stabbed him in the back during time of war, in an absolutely unprecedented way. And they did it the moment the war got hard. And they literally helped the enemy and helped the terrorists. Because Al Jazeera was reporting to the Arab world, “Hey, even the AMERICANS say they’re wrong and evil.”
And Democrats said, “Bush lied (about WMD), people died.” All over the place. The SAME Democrats who again are on the factual record as having said that Iraq had WMD. I mean, this is treason!!!
But now we find out from the Wikileaks that in point of fact Saddam DID have the WMD. And that Democrats had been telling for YEARS a giant, obscene lie that amounted to the lowest form of treason during time of war.
And I can go on and on. Obama demonized the surge strategy when it was the only path to victory – literally tried to stop America from winning the war in Iraq – even as the Democrat Senate Majority leader Harry Reid declared defeat saying, “I believe this war is lost.” All while our troops were fighting and dying to win. And as the surge worked and General Petraeus came to Washington to testify to that, I can show you Hillary Clinton among other Democrats clearly suggesting that General Petraeus was a liar. And I can show you now the Obama administration saying that the very war and the very surge that won that war that Democrats had constantly demonized “could be one of the great achievements of this administration.”
I’ve got a lot of that documented and directly quoted here.
And you actually think you can look at a stupid photoshop and say, “Republicans are lying”!?!?!?
This is the part where I ask you if you’re a moral idiot, Alabama.
Yes, the Republicans, me, heck, Fox News, aren’t perfect. But use your brains and look at both sides and – as Joshua said, “Choose this day whom you will serve.” Because there’s a war going on for the soul and the literal survival of our nation going on all around you, and your standing there on the sideline bitching about trivialities.
I don’t always have the facts to know that something like this picture had bogus elements. I try to do my best, but I’m just a blogger with Google. And I’ve got to call them as I see them at the time.